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Brexit

Westministenders: The One Where We Finally Get A Leadership Challenge?

987 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/11/2018 22:50

Tick tick tick.

What do we think?

Yes? No?

Another week of wtf-ing at British politics.

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25
DGRossetti · 20/11/2018 14:26

I had a question ... googled, and found (apologies if it's been posted before)

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/09/brexit-has-the-semblance-of-a-new-english-civil-war/

blogs.lse.ac.uk
Brexit has the semblance of a new English Civil War
6-7 minutes

Brexit may be coming, but the terms are far from clear. In the range between the Norwegian model (membership in the customs union and single market without political participation) and a hard Brexit severing all ties with the EU, and even the long run dissolution of the United Kingdom, anything is possible. History rarely repeats itself, but some structures have a long life, writes Stefan Collignon (LSE). He argues that one of the fascinating features of the Brexit vote in 2016 was that it reflected the old trenches of the English Civil War in the 17th century.

The political map of the Brexit vote resembles the regional distribution of support for the King, Court and Tories against Parliament, Merchants and liberal Whigs. The geography of narrow conservatism and open-minded liberalism does not seem to have changed for centuries. The English Civil War reflected the tensions of early modern globalisation. During the first half of the 17th century, new technologies had created new opportunities for business, but the cost of managing the state had also increased rapidly. The traditional nobility saw a decline in its influence and a rise in the wealth of the gentry and merchants – the result of a tremendous expansion of markets.

It was from this middle class of gentry and merchants that the opposition in Parliament drew most of its support against the crown. They wished to do away with financial and commercial restrictions and resented the King’s interferences with free markets; they also wanted to have a say in such matters as religious and foreign policies, while the King sought to keep control over his traditional economic prerogatives.
Image by Tim Sheerman-Chase, (Flickr), licenced under (CC BY 2.0).

When the Civil War broke out in 1642, London’s economy was diverse and dynamic, closely connected through commercial networks with the rest of England as well as Europe, Asia and North America. But the traditional rural North and the West of England had become impoverished, and this is where the King and his Cavaliers drew support from Catholics and most of the Nobles. Even if the vagaries of the Civil War shifted over time, it is generally true that the strongholds of royalty included the countryside, the shires, and the less economically developed areas of northern and western England. However, the King had no support in Scotland and was paralysed by civil war in Ireland.

The Parliamentarians, by contrast, drew on the richer areas of the South and East, militant members of Parliament, and puritan merchants. The cathedral cities, which profited from foreign pilgrims, and all the industrial centres, the ports, and the economically advanced regions of southern and eastern England were typically parliamentary strongholds. See Figure 1a.

The Brexit vote, too, took place after half a century of accelerated globalisation. Expanding markets have transformed Britain and Europe. New elites have benefitted from fewer restrictions in Europe’s single market, while conservative Tories wish to keep the prerogatives of the nation-state. Europeanisation and globalisation have created winners in the new economy of England’s South and losers in the old industries of the North. The overlap between the maps of England during the “first civil war” in 1643 showing royal strongholds and those of the support for Brexit in 2016 is remarkable. Figure 1b indicates that the leave vote was strongly defended in the North and East and less in the South and West, while Scotland and large parts of Northern Ireland voted remain.

Source: CC BY-SA 3.0

Thus, Britain has effectively returned to the politics of the time before it was a united kingdom. The Brexit vote has opted for the closed society that hopes to preserve the old but will keep the country poor, against the “open society” of improved prosperity for which the European Union stands. It is true that some Brexiters dream about turning the UK into a deregulated “European Hongkong”, but that does not stop them from promoting xenophobic nationalism. By contrast, European integration is based on the liberal idea that opening markets will overcome nationalism and generate a common culture.

What had made Britain the beacon of freedom and democracy after the Civil War was the victory of the liberal Whigs over the conservative Tories. This would have been impossible without the crucial role of Scotland and Ireland in the drama. The Scottish Rebellion forced the King to accept limitations to his sovereignty. Ireland was, at first, a fallback position for loyalists, but coming from outside Cromwell turned Ireland against reactionary Toryism.

Shall we see a similarly decisive role for Scotland and Ireland in the Brexit negotiations? The Scottish Government is now forging ahead with its own EU Withdrawal Bill – despite being told it is beyond the Scottish Parliament’s powers. Scottish nationalists wish to stay in the customs union and the single market and aim for a Norwegian option. A constitutional conflict seems inevitable. And the danger of locking people up behind borders is nowhere more obvious than in Ireland. The UK government has repeatedly stated that it does not want trade barriers between Northern Ireland and Britain, but a hard Brexit is simply not compatible with that option.

While history may not repeat itself, geography imposes constraints on what political actors can do. Scotland and Ireland have saved England from itself in the 17th century. It may well turn out, once again, that Scotland and Ireland will keep Britain open and defeat little England.

This post gives the views of the author, not the position of LSE Brexit or the London School of Economics.

Stefan Collignon is Professor of Political Economy at Sant’Anna School of Advanced Studies in Pisa and Senior Research Fellow at the European Institute of LSE. His most recent book is The Governance of European Public Goods. Towards a Republican Paradigm of European Integration, Palgrave 2018.

Westministenders: The One Where We Finally Get A Leadership Challenge?
BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2018 14:27

The first requirement is not to make things worse

Don't go for scorched earth
Don't go for delusional fantasy

A No Deal is far worse than this WA

AND Pennycook's bloody scheme of sabotage would put the public blame firmly on extreme Remainers, not Brexiters

My only plan is to delay as much as possible and hope there is a large public swing to Remain, which might push the govt to Revoke next year.

My other plan is a demand that MPs should produce a plan that would actually work, without deliberately risking the most vulnerable in our society

Most Brexiters won't back down to a threat against the poor and disabled, because they don't give a shit

Motheroffourdragons · 20/11/2018 14:29

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Hasenstein · 20/11/2018 14:29

My (admittedly limited) understanding of the matter is that there's a lot more to being a Christian than just saying you're one. Compassion, love of your neighbour, forgiveness, protecting the weak - that sort of stuff. And I have no problem with that or the people that practice it ...

I have plenty of discussions at church about how I find it impossible for people to be a Christian without being a Socialist. But this is a very Tory area and there are plenty of people who think that individual charity alone is enough. They are trying to live their faith just the same as I am, and I certainly have no right to judge.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2018 14:31

Very interesting, DG

imo, Brexit is quite likely to break up the uk soon, whatever form of Brexit we have

It's just that No Deal is likely to lead to that breakup being far more bitter, maybe even bloody.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2018 14:38

The earlier Labour party owed a lot to Methodism, Haselstein

and most mainstream European Conservative parties, like the German CDU and CSU, are strongly influenced still by Christian principles,
which causes them to support a "social contract" to keep a decent standard of welfare.
It also makes them socially conservative, e.g. equal marriage, abortion

British Tories were more Christian, or maybe just paternalistic, in the 1940s - 1970s, but I think their religion now, if any, is just lip service

The FDP (Liberals) in Germany have no religious connections and they are usually the ones who push for welfare cuts, in the classic economic liberal way.

1tisILeClerc · 20/11/2018 14:39

{A better plan would not be accepting a rubbish WA in a kind of blackmail situation}
A significant problem is that the UK has not bee working on a 'plan' for most of 2 1/2 years. It has said it wants to leave (OK) but has not articulated WHAT it wants to leave. Totally, bits of, whatever?
The EU negotiators and presumably some quiet UK negotiators have hammered out 585 pages of a plan that is obviously EU biassed so that the EU is not hurt too severely by the UK leaving. It LOOKS harsh on the UK, and it is certainly challenging, but for business as expressed by the guy from Siemens it is 'workable'.
Has Mrs may and others not put arbitrary red lines, which could NEVER be accepted by the EU as they would destroy its foundations, but instead worked around them and sold a more pragmatic plan to the UK people, even if there were some issues the EU would have tried to find a way around. The 4 founding pillars of the EU are rightly sacrosanct (although a wiggle on FoM might be handy) so by the drawing of red lines in so many places, the allowable space for an easy deal is too small.
It is not blackmail, the UK, having declared it wanted out, needed to come up with a plan, but didn't.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2018 14:44

A WA that business says it can live with is a hell of a lot better than No Deal, which they nearly all agree would be an existential disaster for many firms

I remember the 2 million extra unemployed that were created very quickly in the 1980s by de-industrialisation.
It illustrated that business cannot long survive sudden hostile conditions
It was the sudden shocks that were the killer

Those good jobs were replaced mostly by very inferior ones, pay & conditions.

DGRossetti · 20/11/2018 14:45

I thought of the civil war, because the division in the UK are that deep - so will have to go on that long.

I have heard a Scottish person joke about the Campbells - that's an event from over 200 years ago. And of course in NI itself - the obsession with Orange and country dancing goes back to a battle fought over 300 years ago.

Quietrebel · 20/11/2018 14:45

BCF

I think the overwhelming 'religion' nowadays on anything even vaguely right wing is identitarianism.

user1471448556 · 20/11/2018 14:57

LeClerc - sorry, my 'blackmail' sentence was confusing. I wasn't accusing the EU of blackmailing. The blackmail situation as I see it, is those that say we have to accept the WA or risk no deal and be held responsible for the sh*t that follows.

I have been campaigning for over two years now for a People's Vote - on the streets, online, at public events - talking to people from both sides. I resent the suggestion that myself and my friends, who have spent hours/money/time trying to avert this disaster, could blamed for people not getting vital medicines. The blame for that should lie at the doors of those who are in power and allow that to happen.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2018 15:01

George is having fun.

Westministenders: The One Where We Finally Get A Leadership Challenge?
OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 20/11/2018 15:12

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BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2018 15:25

Some blame would lie with those Remainers who deliberately threaten No Deal,
with some MPs even trying to make No Deal worse by blocking bills for prep measures

all to try to force the govt to give up
That is most unlikely to work

If there is a No Deal, then public opinion will be looking for scapegoats and the media will try to make sure it isn't Brexiters

  • Remainers who vote down the WA would be first in line letting the govt off the hook
1tisILeClerc · 20/11/2018 15:27

user1471448556
There are many who see the WA as presented as blackmail when taken as being the only option.
Of course there are at least 3 options, No deal, the WA (close to what has been presented) or remain.
The WA is (by at least some accounts) 'workable' and to mind deliberately made not too 'soft' on the EU side, deliberately to make the UK think hard about what it wants. With UK politicians openly declaring they would rip up the plans for the WA after it had been signed (during a transition period) the EU understandably wants as much of the furniture nailed down firmly as possible.

missmoon · 20/11/2018 15:27

I have been campaigning for over two years now for a People's Vote - on the streets, online, at public events - talking to people from both sides. I resent the suggestion that myself and my friends, who have spent hours/money/time trying to avert this disaster, could blamed for people not getting vital medicines. The blame for that should lie at the doors of those who are in power and allow that to happen.

Same here, plus crowdfunding the various court cases, and I also resent it.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2018 15:29

imo there won't be anywhere near enough votes for a PV,
unless maybe the WA is voted down and the govt wants to avoid blame for No Deal

Again the problem that both the PM and the Leader of the Opposition are currently against a PV, because they are both pro Brexit

between them, they control a large majority of MPs

BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2018 15:35

It's fine to campaign until the 1st HoC vote, to put on pressure
but after that stage, evaluate how likely the govt is to give in and revoke

However, those MPs who block the WA right to the end, say after a 2nd vote,
and dare the govt to bring in No Deal
especially those who block the No Deal prepping

are imo gambling with other people's lives
and Remain are likely to face some of the blame afterwards

user1471448556 · 20/11/2018 15:38

BigChoc - Which Remainers are threatening No Deal? Every Remainer I know, sees this as the worst case scenario?

How can even our nutjob right wing media pin a No Deal Brexit on Remainers when it is the absolute opposite of what we have campaigned for, voted for, fought for?

1tisILeClerc · 20/11/2018 15:46

user1471448556
I was a Remainer but definitely now think the UK must leave, at least for a while. Simply staying in (remaining) now would be folly. Obviously not as crazy as crashing out with no deal.
The world has moved on significantly in the last 2 1/2 years and we are not now where we were then. There is a lot of anger and 'steam' that needs letting out which the UK needs to do on it's own.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2018 15:50

I've just read the details of the first Bloody Sunday, in 1920
Ît's the 98th Anniversary tomorrow, but I only really knew about the 1972 one

British soldiers and police suddenly charged into a GAA match in Dublin and started shooting randomly into the crowd
They murdered 14 people, including 3 schoolboys aged 10, 11, 14

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-to-mark-grave-of-schoolboy-killed-on-bloody-sunday-in-1920-1.3704329

Motheroffourdragons · 20/11/2018 15:51

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user1471448556 · 20/11/2018 15:58

Motheroffourdragons - I agree with you. I'm astounded that at this point people are willing to give up and do exactly what May and co. want us to do. We have four months left to salvage this - it's worth fighting for a People's Vote. The WA takes away FOM from all of us and, as others have said, there's nothing to stop the Brexiters from taking over from May post 29 March and ripping the WA all up anyway.

Mrsr8 · 20/11/2018 15:59

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2018 16:00

user Voting down the WA automatically lead to No Deal unless the govt gives in

Also, Matthew Pennycook is one of a group of Remainer MPs organising blocking some prep laws for No Deal,
which would make No Deal even worse

However, many Tory MPs actually prefer No Deal and so do about ⅓ of voters
All this looks a very risky attempt to frighten the govt into Remain, which if carried into say February just makes No Deal almost certain.

A sign of things to come after Brexit - The Mail has already started the blame game ... against Remainers:

"Blair is determined to thwart Brexit and believes threat of no deal would help "
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6351651/Tony-Blair-tells-MPs-vote-deal-push-new-referendum.html

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