Westministenders: Deadline Day #1

[RedToothBrush]

We have hit another Deadline Day.

As it stands, the EU are looking for more progress. May is digging in her heels by suggesting there is new a requirement for backstop to a backstop. The backstop to all intents and purposes is the GFA. So May is saying in effect, that the EU are forcing her to put in provisions to protect an international agreement we are signed up to, and if we breech it we risk peace in NI.

After lots of noise it seems that the Cabinet have decided to stick by May. For now.

The EU look like they are talking as if their meeting next month will exclude the UK and just go straight to No Deal planning.

There is also other talk of alternatives to allow the UK to stay in the customs union. But theres not much to that and it still doesn't solve the ERG and the DUP problem.

May is vastly unestimating how much the ERG and the DUP want to break the GFA. Which is a huge misjudgment.

There is also talk of the final final Deadline Day actually being Dec 13. For various reasons its not. Thats 29th March.

So Wednesday is Deadline Day #1. Expect more.

threetrees Democracy is not a single event, it's an ongoing process in which citizens actively participate. Sadly, sometimes people like yourself throw around terms like democracy to shut down debate and undermine democracy.

Please don't forget that we have a system of representative democracy, not direct democracy in the UK, and that therefore the referendum was ill advised and olds no legal power.

FP: it's Cameron and cabinet misisters that count here, not campaigners - because they were the ones that had the power to deliver

Poor old threetrees - scared of making sure The People are still really happy with what they've been sold. Are you worried they're going to use their statutory rights to return the product and get a refund?

trees There is nothing sacred about a referendum, compared to a GE
In fact referenda are not part of the traditional British Constitution

However, since you rate referenda so highly, what is wrong with asking the voters if they are satisfied with the only Brexit on offer ...
Not the fantasy offered in the referendum, but the real one that the government has actually negotiated - or failed to negotiate

If you don't think they are facts, please provide evidence to disprove them. I'm all ears.

UFennel - because the result of the first ref HAS NOT YET been delivered

The result of the first ref (ie 'LEAVE' with no other clarifications) is undeliverable without causing tremendous harm to the economic, social and cultural fabric of the UK.

Hence the need to step back and rethink the result. Hence the calls for the peoples' vote.

people aren't so dumb that they need to be told how to vote, but they do expect the LEADERS to deliver - and that would be Cameron and Tory Party of the time

Cameron ran away as soon as the vote came in
he realised noone could deliver the fantasy Brexit that Leave promised.

Noone knowingly voted to be poorer,
so we should check that they consider Brexit is important enough to suffer that

UF: re: house analogy - what makes you certain that the vast majority of Leavers have now changed their minds?

This season we've harvested a glut of apples from our little tree - over 25 kgs ! What in the heck do we do with them all? I'm thinking mostly apple pie?

As far as I remember the expensive leaflet that was distributed to all households was quite correct in it's facts.
The MASSIVE omission was that it should have had one more line of text saying 'if you vote leave the UK will be well and truly buggered' or words to that effect.
Sadly it wasn't as attractive as a big red bus full of unicorns.

PSunrise : more worried about a subversive establishment stitch up tbh

People can vote to repeal the laws of gravity
Doesn't mean politicians can deliver it

Do you really think the Tory party would be tearing itself apart if Brexit was deliverable at acceptable cost to the economy
They are shitting themselves about being out of office for a generation afterwards
(of course, Corbyn may rescue them there)

BCF: nonsense, in fact, people DID vote to be poorer, they just tend not to phrase it in those terms

trees, I haven't suggested that 'the vast majority' of Leavers have changed their minds. The polls suggest that some have, but who knows.

My point was that, given even most Leavers consider it to all be a total shitshow now, wouldn't it be sensible to take a step back and reconsider? Now that we have more info than we did 2 years ago?

If another vote demonstrates that, in spite of everything, the majority still want to leave, well so be it. It's a monumental decision, that will affect our country for decades to come. It's entirely reasonable that we get to confirm whether or not we still want to do it, given the incredible complexities and potential issues that have come to light.

Surely, as a reasonable, intelligent person, you can see the sense in this?

trees We don't need the majority of Leavers to change their minds, only a small % of them, to add to all the Remainers.

If you don't want to join the march, fine.
Start your own "I love Brexit" march - if you can find enough people

"people DID vote to be poorer" ?
That's probably news to most of them

If the referendum question in 2016, agreed by both side, had said "Remain vs Be Poorer with Brexit
I suspect the result would have been somewhat different

Robert Peston thinks it will be no deal, or a very bad one for the economy
He gives a warning that the nervous shouldn't read further

https://m.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2189927274665339/

BBC Breaking News @BBCBreaking
Facebook hires former deputy PM Sir Nick Clegg as head of global affairs and communications

WHAT.

BCF: nonsense, in fact, people DID vote to be poorer, they just tend not to phrase it in those terms

I'm not understanding. Can you expand on that, please?

I love Brexit" march - if you can find enough people

Such a march would not attract more than a handful of people.

Yes three trees - you see we simply must keep voting until the people deliver the right answer!

Peston is usually such a cheery mix of optimism and singular thought, BCF. They are definitely 'in' or they think they are.

New York times is Covering James Patrick now.
British Hoarders Stock Up on Supplies, Preparing for Brexit
www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/world/europe/brexit-preppers-united-kingdom.html

Someone posted earlier an excuse for the press and media lying about MPs not wanting a WA. Patrick Kielty has also just had a BBC appearance cancelled.

I presume there's a few freemasonic winks and handshakes going on across the management of the central regime co ordinators, CCHQ, the BBC and papers.

When what happened to James Chapman did. It became clear what this was, to those who chose to see.

If we were anywhere near a reasonable agreement with the EU that safeguarded the GFA and supported the UK economy (so, basically an EEA-type deal) then the campaign for a new referendum would be ridiculous.

But we're not. If we get to the stage (which now feels quite close) where it is clear the choice is between no deal, a rubbish deal that screws the Irish people (on both sides of their border) and our economy, and Remain, then a fresh vote is a perfectly legitimate suggestion.

Ah but I think a realist would realise that ‘remain’ wouldn’t now be exactly what we had before. I strongly doubt we would retain our rebate for example.

Remain and leave are now both equally difficult to define.

But march away....