Calling EU citizens: Permanent Residency or Naturalisation?

[stickygotstuck]

Just that.

I think it may be unearth-head-from-sand time, and so was wondering what everybody else is doing, or has done?

If you are an EU MNetter and are staying in the UK, which option seems preferable to you?

Thanks all

Yes, there was talk of making it available through an app that'll be quick and simple to use. I am guessing the rollout will go without a glitch and it will all be seamless and trouble free [ironic emoticon]. But apparently they are testing it now.

Has anybody else heard of this?

I've heard of it though I am not holding my breath for a simple roll out.

Yes I've heard of it. Only available on Android phones. It's in testing now in Liverpool area.

Neither am I, Okki, that's the main reason I think I'd rather start now. Except I need to prep myself for the long form and the thousand question about stuff I probably won't be able to remember (and consequently, back to the rage )

Oh something like:
Are you an EU citizen: Y/N
Do you want to stay in the UK: Y/N

No paperwork needed, no proofs of anything?
Yeah, I am sure it will happen!

Good luck OP whatever you decide!

As an immigration lawyer I can assure you that you cannot legitimately have a passport without being a citizen of that country. A passport is simply a document proving your citizenship. That’s not to say that people don’t end up holding two passports when technically they lost one of their citizenships, because the relevant authority hasn’t cottoned on.

My advice is for anyone who has a simple case and wants British citizenship, they should apply under the current scheme. The reason is that you can ask for the PR document to be backdated: eg “you were deemed a permanent resident from 1 January 2015”. This will enable you to immediately apply for British citizenship. If you wait for the settled status programme, all indications are that they will not be able to backdate it, so even when you receive it you will then need to wait one more year before becoming eligible for citizenship (as you need 12 months of residence free of immigration restrictions before you can apply, unless you are married to a British citizen).

Didn't there used to be a difference between "British Nationals" who had a British passport but no "right of abode" in the UK and "British Citizens" who did ? Just to muddy things ?

UK home office now insists on declaration of all citizenships on passport applications and renewals

I wonder what they do if people are unaware they hold another citizenship ? Say their birth was registered at the non-UK parents consulate without too much fuss, and divorce/death means the child never knew ?

Thanks Porcupine!

Thanks for your comments, Constance. The two passport thing is a big worry.

As for waiting for the new scheme, my instinct is to go apply for PR now. I am married to a British citizen though, so I guess that's some breathing space.

Incidentally, the amount of British friends and acquaintances who think that if your are married to a Brit you are sorted is massive.

Rossetti, my head hurts thinking about that!

I don't have the paperwork in front of me but fairly sure there's a compulsory declaration re completion to "best of knowledge" on pain of fine and prison. So any excuses would need to be watertight (if what I've posted is correct).

sticky if you are Spanish and your children dual British / Spanish and resident in the UK when they turn 18 they will have to do the same I had to do last year. The deadline is 2 years too (from what I remember the articles in the Civil Code and in the Registry Rules cover both cases, those born with dual citizenship and those born Spanish only who acquire a second citizenship after 18). The deed is called an 'Acta de Conservación de la Nacionalidad Española' and they give you two appointments (same day), one with the Registrar to check the originals (you have to send copies of the documents in advance) and another one with the Consul, who reads the document with you and signs it. These deeds are sent to the National Registry (Madrid) in batches (long delay here) and then the 'Acta' is registered in the birth annotation. In the case of adults acquiring a second citizenship this is later sent to the local Registry where the birth was registered originally for them to register the entry in the birth annotation. It took 14 months from me (from the date I signed the deed to the date the Consulate contacted me to tell me I had to go there to pick up the amended birth certificate).

Wolf 'Losing my Spanish passport, the mere possibility this can happen, is a real worry... With the introduction of advanced checks for passengers on flights (Schengen requirement?) it is difficult to use two passports in the same booking, so I am using my Spanish passport for all my travels to Spain (quite regular, a couple of days to see my parents) and the British passport for work-related trips (once a month). I also plan to vote in every single Spanish election (despite the queues at the consulate and the convoluted requirements for postal vote) for them not to say in 5 years time, when I have to renew my passport and ID card, that I have not 'exercised' my Spanish rights, I know that the Law covers me, but this thing about not trusting anybody is contagious...

Bruja, yes I am . Thank you for that detailed description, I think that's what I'll have to do. Wish me luck, it'll be a long process.

I have been wondering advanced passenger information thing. That prevents you from exiting the country with one passport and enter it with a different one, so I don't know how having two would work in practice.

sticky I have not tried but I have been told you need to use the same passport, as it could create 'problems' with exits / entries registered under a different passport. It makes sense because when getting ready to apply for PR I got a SAR from the Home Office showing all my travels for the, then, last 5 years. I travel a lot, most of the time day trips, for work, and it was nearly impossible for me to get all details as some flights are booked by my employer. When I got the SAR back it detailed every single entry (by my Spanish passport number) to the country, with details of the flight booking and route. This automated border system is in place in all EU countries so I think the system would not link exits and entries under different passports. I guess there is a possibility you get stopped at the border scanner because it is expecting another passport number, not the one you are scanning... And I don't want to be in that position!

There was also an 'error' in the travel details I was sent by HO, smallish one, and not due to having used different IDs. I had travelled to Spain with DH and DC for Easter and when I booked the flights I realised if I combined my Easter 'out' flight with a 'return' at a much later date (to see my parents, on my own) I could book a very cheap flight from Spain to the UK using this 'out' as the 'return' of the Easter flight and the 'return' of the second flight as the 'out' for the second, short stay, in Spain. This saved me 100s of pounds but confused the system! The SAR was showing I had been out of the UK for 2 months instead of just 5 days!

So I think you have to be very careful when using two passports, even between Spain and the UK, as everything is being registered under the passport number in the flight booking,

However I have used two passports once... I was in Spain this summer but had to return to the UK for work, just for two days and quite urgently. I booked a flight with Norwegian, a company I had never booked with before, and had to fill API for the first time with them. I used the British passport because I had the details on the mobile and was too lazy to go back inside for the other one! Travelled with it in both out and return legs of the journey but when I got to Alicante airport border control late at night there was a huge queue at the machines and a very short one for Spanish ID cards (manned with policemen) so I joined that one. The policeman told me it was fine because the registered reference would be that of the booking, as they were not scanning the ID cards.

Don't forget the Consulate appointment once your children are 18. I have been told some people did not know about this requirement and once they deem you have 'renounced' to your birth citizenship is not easy to recover it. And be patient but insistent. I remember when the Consulate in London was fast and effective in solving issues but in the last 10-15 years it has became a nightmare. For them and for us!

sticky I forgot to wish you good luck!

Get the SAR asap, it will help loads for both PR and naturalisation as you have to declare all (ALL!) your entries and exits since the first time you came to the UK. I don't know if they have removed this for PR but it is still in the naturalisation application. I had to send them an Excel file, hahaha.
PM if you have any questions.

Thank so much, Bruja, your input is priceless! Thanks for the good wishes too .

One more question for you, please. I am assuming I can apply for PR, then apply for naturalisation and, once my UK citizenship comes through, it is then I have to get in touch with the Consulate. So no point in getting in touch wit them before I actually have UK citizenship. Is that right?

sticky Yes, no point in getting an appointment until you have your naturalisation certificate, which is given to you after the ceremony.

Then you will need a translation of it (I think this is a silly requirement, btw, but you need a 'traducción jurada' by one of the approved translators, there is a list in the web, both Consulate and Ministerio de Justicia). I instructed a London based translator who was very quick and charged, for what I remember, £30.

You also need to write a document ('instancia' type, what you want to do and why) and send it in advance with the rest of the documents.

I asked the Consulate about what the document should contain and how to word it and this is what they said:
No existe ningún formulario oficial, es suficiente con que vaya dirigido al Encargado del Registro Civil (puede hacerlo en forma de instancia o de carta), y que contenga la manifestación de desear conservar la nacionalidad española.

I downloaded a draft of the document from the Frankfurt (or maybe Hamburg?) Consulate web, so it exists (even if it is not 'official' it shows some civil servants help us folk) and confirms how unhelpful some Consulates are. Because there is plenty of info about this process in other Consulates' webs (the full process is very clear in some South American Consulates' web but I don't remember now which ones, sorry) and almost none about it in the London one.

(Maybe this has changed, as I checked at some point at the beginning of the year and there was more info than when I had this done, but still was not enough to understand the process and document it).

Thanks again, Bruja, that is a very clear explanation of the process.

I may PM you if I have any questions if that's OK .

sticky of course it's ok, PM for anything you need

bruja V interesting re SAR - I didn’t realise you could do that! How do you make that application? Would help me massively as well!

frida this is the current link:
www.gov.uk/government/publications/requests-for-personal-data-uk-visas-and-immigration/request-personal-information-held-by-uk-visas-and-immigration

You would need entry and exit records. If you have renewed your passport in the last 5 years send them both passports as if you send them only the last one they would only be checking that one.

The process was different when I requested mine, back in Q1 2016; it was by post only but there was a fast track pilot scheme which avoided the written confirmation of true likeness.... It appears the process was changed in early 2018 and now there is no fast track option available.

There is a forum, Immigration Boards, with plenty of useful information. I learnt about the possibility of SARs and many other tips from these guys.

EEA
www.immigrationboards.com/eea-route-applications/

Naturalisation
www.immigrationboards.com/british-citizenship/

Btw, for PR I think you can apply based on any period of 5 consecutive years, so if you have been here for long try to choose 5 years with the same employer, if possible (much easier to document), or 5 years with just a couple of employers and no gaps of more than a few weeks between employment (to avoid the requirement of private health insurance). The problem with this is that if the 'clock' counting PR stops at any time it gets reset to zero (appears other EU countries do not apply this rule this strictly). It all depends on what documents you have kept as apart from payslips and P60s I think you need two proofs of address per year.

Even if you go to a period in the past, let's say 2005 to 2010, they will record your PR as having been acquired in 2010 so if you have been a SAHP after this date it would be fine. Providing you haven't been out of the country for 2 years or more since you acquired PR as you would have lost it after the 2 years!

PR is a status based on being part of the EU is it not?

Post leaving the EU provides no 'rights'.

We chose the Citizenship route.

PR status
Life in UK Test
English Language Test (£150 for 10 minutes!)
Biometrics taken
Applied for citizenship
Attended the Citizenship ceremony
Finally can apply for British passport

Has cost nearly £2k but worth every penny to not be at the mercy of this government whatever 'promises' they make.

I'm just in the process of applying for Citizenship and have PR, the Life in the UK test and the language test already.
I need to make an appointment with my council for the checking service as I cannot be without my passport.
BTW: I'm using the online form

I simply don't trust this government at all and I also want dual citizenship, which my country only allows with EU countries without jumping through a million hoops.

I have applied for and been granted PR a few months ago. Just passed my LIU test and I have a degree from a British university, so hopefully enough evidence that I can go ahead with citizenship now.

I don't trust the government one inch that the settled status thing is going to go smoothly, cope with the volume of applications or even be up and running by the time they said it would be.

I also have a mortgage, which is coming up for renewal and will be struck off the electoral register by 29/3/19 as we will lose any right to vote, even locally. So my credit score will take a nosedive at the wrong time.

Nope, I'd rather be on the safe side.

My biggest worry is that one of my DC has my original nationality and I don't know how this will affect them. I am hoping my British DH can adopt fairly swiftly and they can get citizenship that way.