Calling EU citizens: Permanent Residency or Naturalisation?

[stickygotstuck]

Just that.

I think it may be unearth-head-from-sand time, and so was wondering what everybody else is doing, or has done?

If you are an EU MNetter and are staying in the UK, which option seems preferable to you?

Thanks all

Thanks for weighing in, Smoky. That's what I mean lisette, I'm sure it's confusing on purpose, to put people off applying for more than one passport!

My circumstances are similar to lisette but the other way round, it's my country (not Germany, Porcupine ) that does not allow dual citizenship - really must double check that. However, DC is separately entitled to both mine and her father's nationalities.

Thanks for confirming Porcupine, that clears that up - I need to apply for PR first either way. That would leave me a bit more time to come up with the extortionate fee...

I am curious, why did you (or anyone else) decide to apply for PR before the referendum? I mean, since as a EU citizen you were entitled to live in the UK anyway?

DH is not applying for nationality or PR yet here - there are a lot of EU citizens where he works and they got legal advice in for them all and they were told best to wait till after Brexit as everything keeps changing. I'm entitled to his nationality so have applied for it. DC's have dual though I am just applying for their British passports to be renewed before Brexit. We're also prepared to leave if we have to.

Thanks Okki

That's a good point. No idea if DH is entitled to apply for my nationality by virtue of our marriage. I doubt it but worth finding out!

My attitude so far has been like your DH's - sit and wait as nobody seemed to know exactly what was happening/what to do. Some friends applied for PR shortly after the referendum and were refused on the grounds of not having private health insurance, that sort of wrong, bonkers reasons. So I decided to minimise the worry and the heartache and sit tight. Until now.

@Okki, we were advise the opposite at work and I would strongly encourage your DH to at least get PR. I know things are changing all the time, but I cannot see them changing for better!
PR is only £65 I think - do not see the reason not to have it.

(also, are you Brit?)

In answer to your question @stickygotstuck - I first came to the UK as a non-EU national so I am all too aware of immigration issues so as soon as I could get PR I did it.
I must admit I do nto know any EU citizen that got PR before the referendum though

Being refused on the basis of not having arranged private health insurance is lawfully correct. Officially all EU people moving to the UK who are not paying NI should have arranged health insurance (Sahp for example ). Most people (including legal advisers ) ignored this bit but it is written in the law. Before brexit it just wasn't expected to become an issue

SmokeyRobinson is correct, they are not bonkers reasons - health insurance is one of the requisites (if you are not paying NI).

As I said before I think EU citizens never paid too much attention to all this because they almost took for granted that they were allowed to live in the UK.

Well I never know that about health insurance!

However, I am talking about people who, like me, have been paying NI in this country for nearly 20 years.

That makes sense, porcupine. I don't know anyone either!

Mhm, that is odd - are they from an A8 or A2 country?

@IamAporcupine I agree about having PR. I'll suggest it again. He has taken the whole Brexit thing personally unfortunately

Oh and yes I'm British.

Nope, one German, one French for the health insurance ones.

I don't find it odd, sadly, just typical of the numerous cockups by badly informed officials, faced with a situation nobody was prepared for. Which is why I left it until they got their act together, at least a bit. I don't think I could have coped with the frustration.

So they were German/French nationals exercising treaty rights for over 5 years in the UK, without interruption etc etc? I do find it odd!

Anyway, I'd suggest you do not wait too long, as you might not be able to apply for it in the near future!

No point in applying now. It's only valid until Dec 2020. Have to apply for settled status instead and that only opens after March 2019.

Got my Citizenship beginning of this year. I qualified under various categories (individually and through marriage) so my application was smooth and without hindrances or delays.
And for anyone planning it your time is running out!
Unless rules have changed (again) since last summer, you need a few months for PR to come through and you then need to have had your PR for no less than 3 months (if I remember the time frames correctly) before you can apply for citizenship.
So not much time left?!?
Aside from the whole Brexit mess, I was the only member of the family to not have a British passport. As we travel a lot I always had that slight worry that if something happened my husband and I would not be aided by the same Consulate. Kids have dual so would always have one of us with them.
Now that's not an issue.

@stickygotstuck just a point about the dual nationality. Regardless of which passport you already hold, when you fill in your British Citizenship application you have to declare your current nationality in the paperwork.
So if your country of origin doesn't allow dual nationality, you have to then hope that the Home Office doesn't pass on the information onto the Consulate (which I have no clue if they ever do or not, as my EU country allows dual nationality so it wasn't an issue for me).

Thank you, forever.

Yes, I am beginning to feel the pressure now, but I'm not too concerned about the looming March deadline, so long as I've started the ball rolling by then. Other posters have said that it only took around a month for their PR to come through. But I do agree that the time has come.

Okki, I know, but I do want to set the wheels in motion before March. And I may end up applying for naturalisation.

Porcupine, you obviously have more faith than me in the system! My German friend appealed /reapplied and goth her PR eventually. But the stress and worry she was under for months before then was awful, especially as unsurprisingly, she couldn't understand why she was refused. The other friend was so upset that he considered moving back, still might.

Spanish here, applied for PR before the referendum and got it the day after the referendum. Went for citizenship last year as I don't trust them, any of them (them = current / future government).

I thought Remain would win (any other 'movement' not being very smart) but had a feeling it would go wrong, although at the time I thought wrong meant very small win so Leavers would want a 2nd, 3rd referendum and would make everything difficult and nasty.

Wasn't too sold on citizenship as Spanish Law is more or less clear (re Civil code, however in a strangely worded article) but at the same time ambiguous (plenty of interpretations on the Internet, mostly posters saying it was impossible to get a second citizenship without renouncing the Spanish one); lot of research, info from the Consulate in London (took months because they never answer calls and rarely reply to emails) and confirmation from a diplomat in my mother's side of the family that it could be done if within 2 years from acquiring British citizenship I formally declared in front of the Consul that I wanted to retain Spanish and this 'deed' was registered in Spain (birth certificate in both national and local registries). I got confirmation of this last step only last month, mission accomplished within timeframe!

MIL is Italian and she says there is no way she is going to apply for PR or citizenship. She's been here since was sent to boarding school in the early 60s, married a Brit/US citizen in 1969... She says she is not going to document her life for the Home Office when they know perfectly well where she's been all these years...

I have a German friend who left last year (her company is moving HQs to Germany because of Brexit and she volunteered to go first as she says she has seen a face of this country she had never realised existed at all) and another German friend says, like MIL, she is not going to apply for any documents. She will leave if she is made to document her life for the past 15 years or even the 5 needed for PR. Her boss is mad at it, doesn't want her to leave (qualified professional in niche field).

forevernotyoung
I think you can apply inmmediately for citizenship if the more than 1 year has passed since the date you acquired PR (different to the day the PR document is issued). This is for applicants who are not married to British citizens so even in this more restrictive case you can apply immediately if your PR was acquired, for example, in Feb16, even if you only applied for PR in Jun18 and the PR card is dated Sep18. I think they are now sending PR documents with a letter showing acquired date as there were a lot of enquirers about the two dates.

Thank you, Bruja, that makes sense. That's what I was finding, plenty of ambiguity and no one prepared to tell you straight. In my case, I understood that when DC was 18 they'd have to do a similar declaration if they wanted to keep their second nationality, but this is the first time I hear of it for 'first' citizens.

How your friends felt is how I felt for a long, long time. Still do sometimes, like the world you knew was swept from under out feet. I also had a bad feeling or would go wrong and was not exactly surprised, just incredibly sad. But with DC and DH being British, I simply can't risk something going wrong and getting somehow separated. Let alone travelling together on different nationality passports!

Just to add, multi citizenship rules don't just vary by country but also by type held eg birth Vs descent citizenships.

UK home office now insists on declaration of all citizenships on passport applications and renewals and I'm very sure they'll not be keeping that a secret.

Anecdotally, I know of someone from a country that didn't permit elective dual citizenship but they took another one anyway. The birth country simply cancelled their birth country's citizenship when they came to renew passport.

Some countries who don't permit multi citizenship run exemption processes if you have "good reason" to maintain more than one ie. if you can demonstrate hardship or discrimination in either country by not having both citizenships.

We are a household of many passports

*something would go wrong, I meant!

Yes, Wolf, that's what worries me, that with so many people now having to apply for different citizenship the rules, that were deliberately ambiguous (I feel) will be tightened.

And that's the issue for me, deciding if it's worth losing my original citizenship. That's a question I never thought would arise, and I get the rage when I think of the situation we've been put in, frankly.

It's appalling isn't it. This is the most astonishing part of the whole Brexit fiasco IMHO; that so many millions of people have had basic stability of residence put into question and the government doesn't GAF (in fact they relish it and seek to capitalise on the stress this has caused).

I don't think a sufficient proportion of British give a fuck either. It's made me very cynical about this country (I'm British btw) and there is no way I'd give up another citizenship to leave me solely with a British passport because I simply don't identify with "values" exhibited in this country in the run up to and since this illegal referendum based on xenophobic bullshit and fiscal ignorance.

I hope it all works out ok for you.

@stickygotstuck - I understand what you say re risking losing your other nationality and I of course would have my reservations too.

What I do not understand is why not to apply for PR now anyway? At the moment all the rights you (and all EU citizens without PR) have to be in the UK are based on the UK being a EU country. Nothing else.
If you apply for PR at least you have an UK 'document' allowing you to stay. Even if only until Dec 2020...

Thank you Wolf, I appreciate the sympathy.

Absolutely, Porcupine. I will be applying for PR now, although I left it until now, firstly because of the lack of clarity and the incompetence, and secondly because I wondered if it would be worth waiting until they roll out the new simplified application process. But that one won't be available until March and, as I said, I am beginning to get itchy feet.

Oh, is that what they have said, that it would be simplified?

The whole situation is awful and very confusing, I agree.