Calling EU citizens: Permanent Residency or Naturalisation?

[stickygotstuck]

Just that.

I think it may be unearth-head-from-sand time, and so was wondering what everybody else is doing, or has done?

If you are an EU MNetter and are staying in the UK, which option seems preferable to you?

Thanks all

Already done the PR but not enough IMO as

1. Rules may change (they can and do) so if you're here for good you don't want to run the risk of another Windrush situation
2. You lose your PR status after two years residence abroad and potentially could not return on the same terms. Also potential complications if you have a job that requires a lot of traveling for instance.
3. My DCs are British so I want the same nationality as them.
4. I pay tax here and want proper representation. Only being able to vote will give me that.

So I'm currently finalising my citizenship application. Not cheap but absolutely worth it. For me it was all or nothing. Citizenship or leave.

Oh and I forgot: if you want to apply for naturalisation, you will need your PR card first.

Agree with Quietrebel, especially re: representation.

Would also add. Remember that there are two Countries involved in the naturalisation question.

DW has just got her British citizenship. If she had waited until after Brexit she would very likely have had to chose between being a Brit and her original nationality.

I went the full way (or am trying to - my citizenship application is with the home office).

Getting permanent residency is relatively straightforward and inexpensive if you have been working in the UK for the last 5 years (or longer). It took only a few weeks for me. If you haven't been working (sahm, student, unemployed etc.) it is more hassle and not even always possible.

The Government has promised a very easy process to get residency post Brexit which I think would be preferable to wait for if you're in the "more hassle" category. There is also the concern that the current permanent residency document (for EU citizens) won't be valid post-Brexit (though you should be able to change it to a "settled status" document for free).

Reasons I went the full way: don't trust the government to produce this simplified settled status system in the required timeline and cope with the level of applications; I'd rather be ahead of the crowd and have certainty on my status & ability to work in this country; and most importantly, I'm pregnant and don't want my child to have to deal with this chaos or extra forms!

However, citizenship requires you to have around £1500 to spare, so an expensive way of buying certainty (and check if your birth country allows double passports!)

I don't want to lose my original citizenship so I won't be going for naturalisation. Once DDs have finished their education I don't see their future or mine being here so we will hang on to our nice burgundy passports and be offski. It's a shame. I used to love this country.

Like pointythings, my husband won't be doing either. He wants to retain his original nationality and burgundy passport. Once our son's British passport expires, we intend to get a passport issuedby his father's country of birth. We intend to leave this country within the next 5 years (depending on the impact of Brexit).

Thanks everyone.

I have lived and worked here for over 15 years, so in the 'no hassle' category. However, there is no way I want to lose my nice burgundy passport.

Having said that, while I know that my country of origin does not allow dual nationality, I think that you can have two passports, IYKWIM. That's what I need to find out. I guess I should ring the Consulate.

What worries me is what a PP said about getting there ahead of the crowd. I have very little faith in things working as they say they will.

Don't worry too much. If you apply now and you're in the 'No hassle' category it should be fine. I expected a long wait but got my card in less than a month.

while I know that my country of origin does not allow dual nationality, I think that you can have two passports, IYKWIM.

Sorry, I really don’t get what you mean!

Thanks Quietrebel. I may be beginning to panic a bit.

So if I need to apply for PR first, are we still talking about that 90+ pages form that has been around since the early days, or is there a simplified version anywhere I should know about?

while I know that my country of origin does not allow dual nationality, I think that you can have two passports, IYKWIM
I don't see how this is possible.

lisette, as far as I am aware dual nationality is not the same as holding two different passports. I know, the mind boggles, but that's the way it was explained to me when DC was born. So long a as you produce the right passport for the right authorities, you can have more than one. But don't quote me on that, as it seems a very obscure point (not coincidentally I suspect)

I am planning to apply for naturalistion in the next few months, although quite pissed off at the high fee. I would definitely leave if I could as I think it is going downhill from here, but I moved to the UK as a teenager, my kids are British and I don’t want to uproot my family. It feels safer to apply for naturalisation right now! The PR doc is still very long but you can do it online, and waiting times seem very short ( a few friends received theirs within a month). I definitely want to hang on to my burgundy passport, and luckily my country of origin allows that.

I hope this doesn’t come across as fighty, I can be a bit terse when trying to type on my phone

Having dual nationality simply means being a national of more than one country. Some countries allow this, others don’t.

With rare (and irrelevant to this discussion) exceptions, you need to be a national of a country in order to be issued with that country’s passport. A passport is basically a travel document that states that you are a national of a particular country.

Some countries (the Netherlands is one example) do not allow dual nationality and if you want to become, say, a Dutch national, then except in specific circumstances you need to provide proof that you have renounced your previous nationality. It’s not like they just say it’s not allowed and then turn a blind eye. And you can’t get a passport without being a Dutch national.

Does that make any sense?

We applied for PR about six months ago and intend to apply for citizenship - partly because we don’t want potential future employers to be put off by us not being British citizens but also I may have to go away for a couple of years for work (outside Europe) and come back - we’ve been here for 16 years so this is the only place we’d want to come back to.

I’m Irish though and DH EU - Irish people have a different status that ore dates EU and no one seems to know what that means post Brexit

We used an online form for PR - v easy to complete actually and local council checked it all before sending off

Re dual nationality I know a few people who have two passports one of which is from a country that doesn’t permit dual nationality. (So one from country of origin let’s say and one from country of residence). They are v careful about which passport they use when entering and exiting each country. Not above board but not un common either.

lisette, not to worry, not fighty at all!

The way you explained the Dutch case is exactly as I understood it. However, when DC was born, I was told that apparently there are nuances and loopholes, and the term 'dual nationality' is not simply to hold two passports. Now, I have no idea how that works in practice, or how that's even possible. But in essence, it's a matter of what country A or B doesn't know can't hurt it, as there are no centralised records. Each country has its own.

Now it is perfectly possible, even likely, that I am way off the mark here but I don't think I dreamt all that up myself, so I think it is worth double checking. Who knows if I'll get a definitive answer, but I can try!

So, out of interest, are there many countries in the EU that allow more then one nationality? If it really is a case of having to give up my original nationality, I'll have to have a good think.

I know what you mean @stickygotstuck -

@Thebeautifullisette not all countries ask for proof that you have renounced your other nationality some actually just take your word as proof, so as long as you travel in and out of the those countries with the right documents, you can get away with it.

Also, sometimes it does matter which nationality you have first, and which one you acquire as a second nationality.

frida, that's what I thought. Not sure if overboard or not, but it seems perfectly legal.

Thanks porcupine. That's what worries me, if it is a matter of 'getting away with it' and 'not being overboard', that it might bring new, unexpected problems later on.

Also, sometimes it does matter which nationality you have first, and which one you acquire as a second nationality.

You are of course absolutely correct. My children are dual nationals and their birth country doesn’t allow dual nationality. But they were eligible for nationality of my country by dint if being my children, and I organised it for them. Their birth country “knows” nothing about it.

I think the passport thing is a red herring though - my children don’t hold passports issued by my birth country simply because they don’t need them unless we’re actually planning to visit. They’re still dual nationals though, as in nationals of both countries.

Dutch citizen here. Dual nationality is possible and my kids have it (British and dutch passports). You can have dual nationality by birth (through parents) and by marriage. I'm married to a Brit and can apply for British citizenship. When I receive that (with a British passport) I can keep my dutch passport. If you are not married and apply (and receive) British citizenship, you have to give up your dutch passport.

Oh sorry, that was confusing AF.

I’m from country A.
Husband from country B, which is where we live. Country B does not allow dual nationality.
Children born in Country B and have Country B citizenship through their father.
Children have Country A citizenship by descent through me, despite the fact that Country B does not allow this. It’s the children’s birthright, as is their Country B citizenship thanks to being born to a Country B national in Country B.

Clear as mud eh?

smokeyrobinson yes those were the “specific circumstances” I was referring to

back to the original question @stickygotstuck - I've had PR for many years now and applied for citizenship after the referendum.

And yes, as @Quietrebel said, it is not one or the other, you do need PR first.

Re dual nationalities and passports - between my DH and me we have 5 nationalities - we just travel with a pile of passports

Are you German by any chance?