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Brexit

Westministenders: Conference Season

975 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2018 10:44

Party Conference Season has officially started. What happens could be utterly crucial for Brexit since Brexit isn't about the EU its about internal party divisions and the politics of personality.

Starting off in the Yellow Corner
The Lib Dems proposals for associate membership and a leader outside the HoC. We know that they support exit from Brexit but what is striking is the shake up of the party seems to be the only thing drawing attention and there is a distinct lack of talk of anything else - including Brexit. Yet there are hints of a tiny shift back to the LDs as Labour and the Conservatives implode despite the LDs having lost all direction. If they can find one then maybe they can throw spanners into the works further down the line.

Moving over to the Red Corner in Liverpool
The Labour Party strife and squabbling gets to be airred in full view in Liverpool; the ongoing anti-semitism row which seems to have no end in sight, the rising issues over women's rights, various Labour MPs being no confidenced in an attempt to deselect them and Brexit policy or more correctly lack of Brexit policy. Thornberry has stated that Labour will vote against any deal May puts forward seemingly in order to trigger another GE. This has been denied as being official policy, but she's a front bencher who hasn't been slapped down for disobedience by Corbyn. There are lots of rumours flying around about the party leadership being under pressure to change direction on Brexit so her comments might be push back against that. Word is that various trade unions and perhaps even Momentum are looking to push for another referendum and a much more pro-remain or explicit EEA policy.

And then there's the Blues...
Where to start with them??

Talk has changed from not whether there will be a leadership challenge to open and widespread discussion from moderate party loyals about when there will be one.

Its been said that a challenge isn't expected at conference nor straight after; the feeling is May will be left to sort out the withdrawal backstop agreement in October at least before being rudely dumped. But don't count on it. Especially in the party of backstabbers.

There's been lots of movement around Johnson too. Former close advisors say he's on self destruct but will still probably be PM. There's the break up of his marriage. There's the complete failure of his time in the foreign office where its hard to see what he actually did apart from upset people. There's his outrageous comments which seem in the style of Steve Bannon. There's talk of him suddenly apparently showing Brexit regret. For me there is one question, which seems very similar to Brexit itself: Boris Johnson has spent so much time and effort into the game of becoming PM, what thought has he given to what he actually does when he has achieved it? Its almost as if there is no plan for that...

Then theres the ERG, with their alternative Brexit White Paper which includes the magic Irish 'Not a Border but Looks Just Like a Border' Solution. Its supported by just about every Tory MP you'd put in a horror cabinet of heartless cold out of touch bastards, who would drive 20 miles out of their way rather than pass through a council estate. But even their stance seems to be softening; talk of aligning NI closely with EU - particularly with agrifoods seems to be moving away from a position compatible with a US trade deal.

And finally the original Tory Rebels, who like everyone else are firmly sticking their fingers up at May's Chequers Deal. Several have said they would support a People's Vote if May doesn't get her head out of her arse and admit the idea is a dead duck.

Look out for more 'non-Tory' style policy plans coming out over the next couple of weeks, like the talk of renationalising the railways.

So what does this mean for Brexit?
Well nothing and everything.

None of this changes the EU position. None of this changes the realities of the negogition process and the 29th March deadline.

It just is in some ways the final party show downs before decisions start HAVING to be made. Party fractures are going to be tested to their limits and the chances of it getting nasty, with the stakes being so high, are high.

I wouldn't like to call ANYTHING unless the conclusion of the conferences.

Its something we don't need as a country. Waiting for this lot to get their shit together has doomed the country.

The Recession is coming. It can not be stopped now. Regardless of what happens over Brexit. Its too late. We can only mitigate the scale of it.

This is the part just before the 2008 crash when people were saying what was about to happen, but everyone ignored. The accepted narrative now is that 'no one could have predicted the crash'. Except they could and they did. Its just that no one wanted to listen.

This is the part just before Iraq where thousands protested and were not listened to, because a politician had it in his head that it was the best option, but he had no real plan for what happened next.

This is the part when people said PFI was a spectactularly bad idea. But it kept being used over and over and over again by all political parties because it was politically easier in the short term.

Enjoy this Christmas.

Next year is going to be a rough old ride for a lot of people.

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BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 18:33

I'm almost exactly in the centre crosshairs

I am of no fixed political abode, currently of no damn abode at all

The most crucial event in Uk post-WW2 history and all the Uk-wide parties are totally inadequate to cope and all have toxic tendencies

woman11017 · 20/09/2018 18:36

I am of no fixed political abode, currently of no damn abode at all
Ich auch. Noodles have got their wee claws into reasonably respectable parties.
We've been noodled.

ShinyElena · 20/09/2018 18:56

All the parties left me, too.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 19:55

I'd thought the EU Heads of govt might boost May before her conference with some meaningless praise, as usual.

However, I gather that May was very agressive when talking to them and dismissive of the NI border with the RoI PM.
After that, they seem to have decided that she's as bad as her probable successors as PM, so stopped propping her up.

Their hopes of a better result from a 2nd ref probably aren't high, but the altternative is a high risk of no deal.
They may be hoping the Tories collapse and Labour get in

  • Labour could probably be coaxed into Norway+, as JC & the Brexiters in Labour are massively outnumbered in the PLP.

I did like Macron's blunt statement:

"The Leave victory was “pushed by those who predicted easy solutions.
Those people are liars
They left the next day so they didn’t have to manage it.”

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 19:56

They sound mightily pissed with Cameron (who is the obvious "they" !)

Peregrina · 20/09/2018 20:04

^they* will also mean Davis and Johnson, who agreed to May's Brexit plan and then walked out.

As for the Leavers telling us to 'get behind Brexit' - if we crash out we will have no choice but to put up with things, but excuse Cameron for his stupidity, and not feel anger towards the majority of Leavers? Fat chance as far as I am concerned.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 20/09/2018 20:05

I'm slightly more the the right than dg. Some of those questions though I'm definitely more on the fence about so had to tip one way or the other. I suspect I'd be a lot more towards the centre if arse on fence was an option. The libertarian aspect doesn't surprise me though.

I've always felt politically homeless though and vote for who doesnt represent me least rather than who represents me more if that makes sense.

borntobequiet · 20/09/2018 20:34

I’m pretty much bang in the middle of the bottom left hand square, which surprised me somewhat as I felt I had drifted upward and rightward in old age.

pointythings · 20/09/2018 20:42

I'm -7.38 and -7.59. I think my questions on religion, sexuality and feminism might have tipped me into extremism...

KennDodd · 20/09/2018 20:59

@DGRossetti

I'm almost exactly the same place!

Mrsr8 · 20/09/2018 21:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

prettybird · 20/09/2018 21:18

pointythings - those were the answers (plus the ones on crime and the death penalty) that probably pushed me further into that square. Things that I definitely had the right strong opinions on Grin

Hazardswan · 20/09/2018 21:24

Im trying to do the compass test and I think I'm to dumb/uneducated.

Alas I'll have a guess and see what it says.

Icantreachthepretzels · 20/09/2018 21:30

Im trying to do the compass test and I think I'm to dumb/uneducated.

I must confess that I had absolutely no idea whether I believed that it was more important to control inflation or unemployment. I imagine both are pretty important. I went with believing that controlling unemployment was the more important - as it seemed more tangible to real people ... but am more than prepared for those more knowledgeable than me to tell me why that was the wrong answer.

My answers on religion and feminism were much more sure of themselves. I used the 'strongly' options much more frequently there (and with the death penalty). I imagine that's why I ended up so close to the bottom left corner.

jasjas1973 · 20/09/2018 21:31

Similar to DGR !

Westministenders: Conference Season
Hazardswan · 20/09/2018 21:38

I think I'm quite close to Gandhi Grin

I understood maybe 2/3 or 3/4 of the test. The water question was tricky, I think water should be freely available but often tap water sucks but it's techinically drinkable.

The inflation vs unemployment question I went for a slight control on inflation because....err... harassing the unemployed into work is annoying and it's never about creating flexible well paid work justflohhibg people to death.

One question was a quote I never heard before and do not understand...

Westministenders: Conference Season
Hazardswan · 20/09/2018 21:39

*just flogging people

Hazardswan · 20/09/2018 21:42

jas we're pretty close.

jasjas1973 · 20/09/2018 22:00

Yes i like that!
The inflation v employment was tricky, i went for controlling inflation, after whats the point in working if you can't afford to buy anything?

SusanWalker · 20/09/2018 22:01

Mine was about the same as yours Jas. I put that it was more important to control inflation on the principle that having full employment is useless if the price of goods is constantly getting ahead of wages. Whereas a bit of unemployment can be mitigated through social security payments.

TM seems to have to refuse a people's vote daily at the moment which is making me think it's more likely. I'm getting the feeling that the cards are about to come tumbling down. Don't know why but I do.

mathanxiety · 20/09/2018 22:06

. it'll stop the fascists gaining power

Sadly BigChoc, I do not think this will be the case.
I think conditions will be ripe for fascism and I think England will lurch to the right, especially if there is lawlessness.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 22:08

Ah, the Guardian analysis supports what I had gathered elsewhere:

May bungled it in a meeting with Varadkhar:
before her arrogant stupidity, the E27 had planned to give her a boost with some flowery words

Afterwards, even Orban didn't demur over the EU's tough line

The UK has still not realised that when they try to bully the RoI, the E27 stand together

On the British side, t's probably ingrained institutional habit - all those centuries of kicking Ireland, without interference, but now the RoI is part of a 700 lb gorilla.

Macron was especially pissed>

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/20/macron-puts-the-boot-in-after-mays-brexit-breakfast-blunder

The French president ripped up the plan to offer Theresa May warm words

Mistigri · 20/09/2018 22:12

I came out as -5 on left/right and -6.5 on libertarian/authoritarian.

But I have doubts about how it is scored. There is a range of political opinion on here but our results are very clustered in the bottom LH corner. Personally by French standards I feel like I'm quite centrist economically - certain way to the right of the melenchonites who clog up my FB feed with moronic stuff most of which is either not true, or racist, or both.

What the questionnaire seems to lack is any measure of pragmatism, which is what many centrists have in common.

And the unemployment/ inflation question was dumb. Ask a Zimbabwean, or a Venezuelan.

prettybird · 20/09/2018 22:15

I did answer the unemployment via inflation question from a position of half forgotten knowledge as I did an economics degree at the time that Friedman's theory (under Thatcher and Patrick Minford) was gaining traction.

I was always (and am still Wink) a Keynesian Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 22:18

Math Worst case is Weimar Republic situation;
the economic consequences obviously won't be anywhere near as bad as the 1930s,
but the British public has very different expectations of life and tolerance of adversity, compared to those of people nearly a century ago, who had survived WW1 and the aftermath

The public has accepted some deterioration in quality of life since 2008, because it was gradual,
but the politicians are making a serious mistake if they assume continued acquiescence after a sudden much sharper deterioration for a lot of people, in a chaotic situation where the govt has clearly cocked it all up.

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