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Brexit

Westministenders: Conference Season

975 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2018 10:44

Party Conference Season has officially started. What happens could be utterly crucial for Brexit since Brexit isn't about the EU its about internal party divisions and the politics of personality.

Starting off in the Yellow Corner
The Lib Dems proposals for associate membership and a leader outside the HoC. We know that they support exit from Brexit but what is striking is the shake up of the party seems to be the only thing drawing attention and there is a distinct lack of talk of anything else - including Brexit. Yet there are hints of a tiny shift back to the LDs as Labour and the Conservatives implode despite the LDs having lost all direction. If they can find one then maybe they can throw spanners into the works further down the line.

Moving over to the Red Corner in Liverpool
The Labour Party strife and squabbling gets to be airred in full view in Liverpool; the ongoing anti-semitism row which seems to have no end in sight, the rising issues over women's rights, various Labour MPs being no confidenced in an attempt to deselect them and Brexit policy or more correctly lack of Brexit policy. Thornberry has stated that Labour will vote against any deal May puts forward seemingly in order to trigger another GE. This has been denied as being official policy, but she's a front bencher who hasn't been slapped down for disobedience by Corbyn. There are lots of rumours flying around about the party leadership being under pressure to change direction on Brexit so her comments might be push back against that. Word is that various trade unions and perhaps even Momentum are looking to push for another referendum and a much more pro-remain or explicit EEA policy.

And then there's the Blues...
Where to start with them??

Talk has changed from not whether there will be a leadership challenge to open and widespread discussion from moderate party loyals about when there will be one.

Its been said that a challenge isn't expected at conference nor straight after; the feeling is May will be left to sort out the withdrawal backstop agreement in October at least before being rudely dumped. But don't count on it. Especially in the party of backstabbers.

There's been lots of movement around Johnson too. Former close advisors say he's on self destruct but will still probably be PM. There's the break up of his marriage. There's the complete failure of his time in the foreign office where its hard to see what he actually did apart from upset people. There's his outrageous comments which seem in the style of Steve Bannon. There's talk of him suddenly apparently showing Brexit regret. For me there is one question, which seems very similar to Brexit itself: Boris Johnson has spent so much time and effort into the game of becoming PM, what thought has he given to what he actually does when he has achieved it? Its almost as if there is no plan for that...

Then theres the ERG, with their alternative Brexit White Paper which includes the magic Irish 'Not a Border but Looks Just Like a Border' Solution. Its supported by just about every Tory MP you'd put in a horror cabinet of heartless cold out of touch bastards, who would drive 20 miles out of their way rather than pass through a council estate. But even their stance seems to be softening; talk of aligning NI closely with EU - particularly with agrifoods seems to be moving away from a position compatible with a US trade deal.

And finally the original Tory Rebels, who like everyone else are firmly sticking their fingers up at May's Chequers Deal. Several have said they would support a People's Vote if May doesn't get her head out of her arse and admit the idea is a dead duck.

Look out for more 'non-Tory' style policy plans coming out over the next couple of weeks, like the talk of renationalising the railways.

So what does this mean for Brexit?
Well nothing and everything.

None of this changes the EU position. None of this changes the realities of the negogition process and the 29th March deadline.

It just is in some ways the final party show downs before decisions start HAVING to be made. Party fractures are going to be tested to their limits and the chances of it getting nasty, with the stakes being so high, are high.

I wouldn't like to call ANYTHING unless the conclusion of the conferences.

Its something we don't need as a country. Waiting for this lot to get their shit together has doomed the country.

The Recession is coming. It can not be stopped now. Regardless of what happens over Brexit. Its too late. We can only mitigate the scale of it.

This is the part just before the 2008 crash when people were saying what was about to happen, but everyone ignored. The accepted narrative now is that 'no one could have predicted the crash'. Except they could and they did. Its just that no one wanted to listen.

This is the part just before Iraq where thousands protested and were not listened to, because a politician had it in his head that it was the best option, but he had no real plan for what happened next.

This is the part when people said PFI was a spectactularly bad idea. But it kept being used over and over and over again by all political parties because it was politically easier in the short term.

Enjoy this Christmas.

Next year is going to be a rough old ride for a lot of people.

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prettybird · 20/09/2018 14:45

The Dutch Prime Minister also said when asked if they were prepared for a No Deal scenario said that they were more prepared than the UK Shock

Again, no shit Sherlock Wink

woman11017 · 20/09/2018 14:50

Jean-Claude Juncker, the European commission president, says he would like a deal by October

But the commission is prepared for a no deal, he says. So don’t worry: “Be happy, don’t worry

@mattuthompson
Macron: "Brexit is the choice of the British people... pushed by those who predicted easy solutions... Those people are liars. They left the next day so they didn’t have to manage it."

woman11017 · 20/09/2018 14:51

@faisalislam
#Salzburg latest
PM: it’s my Chequers Deal or No Deal
Tusk: EU27 agree Chequers “will not work”
Dutch PM: Netherlands is more prepared than UK for No Deal
French PRes: UK politicos who sold Brexit are “liars”

Motheroffourdragons · 20/09/2018 15:00

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 20/09/2018 15:05

I know very little about Macron, except I think more of him now than I did this morning.

It comes to something when French politicians appear to be more in tune with UK politics than the Prime Minister of the UK.

prettybird · 20/09/2018 15:05

Roll on Scottish independence Smile

1tisILeClerc · 20/09/2018 15:06

{May: I have always said that these negotiations are going to be tough}
Maybe is she had some sort of plan it might have helped?
I tend to find if I take my grocery shopping list into a hardware store I come out feeling it wasn't the most successful of experiences.

DGRossetti · 20/09/2018 15:10

May: I have always said that these negotiations are going to be tough

Hmm

Be curious if anyone can actually be bothered to find any cite for that, given the blatherings of team DD/BJ/LF ?

1tisILeClerc · 20/09/2018 15:11

Mr Macron may not be universally popular in France as he has pushed through some unpopular reforms but I think his heart is in the right direction. For obvious reasons I hope his plans bear fruit, with a personal request to slacken a bit on the red tape, triplicate is fine, quadruplicate is pushing things!

woman11017 · 20/09/2018 15:14

God she makes me really angry. angry
I know why she was sweating so much.

In a criminal court case there's only one charge she should be facing.

prettybird · 20/09/2018 15:20

To be fair on her wash my mouth out with soap Hmm the SKY reporter did say it was incredibly hot in that press conference room.

RedToothBrush · 20/09/2018 15:21

It comes to something when French politicians appear to be more in tune with UK politics than the Prime Minister of the UK.

One of the great cultural differences between the UK and the rest of Europe is our great ability to tell someone they are complete shit ignorant shit heads who no one likes, whilst doing so in a manner that is ever so polite and that the individual concerned doesn't necessarily recognise the insult.

Whereas other cultures are more direct and don't do the bullshit.

My Dutch friend once told me that one of the cultural things she most struggled with here was people saying "Oh you really should come round for tea, you are welcome anytime", when the reality was they didn't mean that at all and it was an empty platitude. Culturally such expressions to her were literal.

Its no surprise to me that Macron is so blunt.

The same goes for the cultural differences in EU negotations.

When Germany says, this is not possible, they mean 'this is not possible', but the British interprete this in a very British way - 'this is our line but this is simply our opening offer'.

The culture clash this produces is rather central to the Brexit process. We've always assumed a change of position coming from the EU will come at some point and we can't envisage that it won't because culturally thats how we are understanding Brexit - as a negogitation in which we had rather more power and influence than we do. Except it really never was.

The Brits never really say what they mean. Being blunt is regarded as rude or crass. British culture is ever so tiring and pointless. We spend far too much time never getting to the point or the problem as a result.

OP posts:
woman11017 · 20/09/2018 15:24

To be fair, Macron could have called her a corrupt, racist, , , *** but discretion is the better part of valour I suppose.

Mistigri · 20/09/2018 15:31

Macron is so blunt.

Tbh I don't think Macron is that blunt. When he is, he tends to get jumped on by the French press and social media.

But he can be blunt on brexit because about 90% of French people don't care about it any more, and of the remaining 10% who do still care, 95% think the Brits have gone stark staring mad*. So this is a zero (
political risk stance for him, at least with his domestic audience.

*I made these numbers up but they are probably an overestimate of French public interest in your ridiculous government.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 15:31

When will "the easiest trade deal in human history" be finished ? 
< drums fingers >

Mistigri · 20/09/2018 15:31

Ugh sorry bold fail there.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 15:42

Yes, in Germany too, May is regarded as a figure of fun, used in carnival floats
No politician would gain any credit by supporting her or being polite about her Dogs Brexit

There are only baffled headshakes and apologetic chuckles whenever I mention I can't fully plan some things we are organising - pensions, residence, healthcare - for the time after Brexit

DGRossetti · 20/09/2018 15:47

One of the great cultural differences between the UK and the rest of Europe is our great ability to tell someone they are complete shit ignorant shit heads who no one likes, whilst doing so in a manner that is ever so polite and that the individual concerned doesn't necessarily recognise the insult.

Hmm

My DF was very blunt (to my DMs clucking). The British think they're superior to other people and will do anything to prove it when it's not important. Obviously the important stuff (healthcare, education, transport) isn't as important as - say - winning Eurovision.

1tisILeClerc · 20/09/2018 15:48

BCF, apart from you not being in the UK the chlorinated chicken, hormone beef and privatised healthcare are practically 'in the bag'.

IrenetheQuaint · 20/09/2018 15:55

I'm getting slightly freaked out by May's seeming inability to understand that No Means No, coupled with her claims that the EU is just playing hard to get Hmm

RedToothBrush · 20/09/2018 15:56

Do you self identify as on the left, on the right or as a centrist?

And is that correct?

This is a fascinating read.

medium.com/@nick.barlow/the-centrist-fallacy-43434642cb00?sk=cfdad8fb06018229b411a088d9b72834
The centrist fallacy

In both cases, we can see that the population as a whole isn’t arranged around what we might think is a moderate position. Voters’ views tend towards the ‘authoritarian’ and ‘left’ sides rather than clustering around the middle. (For more on this and how left-authoritarians are perhaps the largest and most unrepresented group in British politics, see the work of Paula Surridge on values and voting).

So, what we can already see is that despite people’s self-description of themselves politically clustering around the middle, their actual political views don’t.

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1tisILeClerc · 20/09/2018 16:13

In other less exciting news, Chris Grayling discovers that UK trains are crap, so rather than fixing the problems he is planning another review which will tell him,,,,, that the railways are crap.

DGRossetti · 20/09/2018 16:18

There have been a few studies over the years which have highlighted that the left/right paradigm doesn't really apply in the New World Order ... which the whole Brexit saga has exposed.

It's more "use brain"/"don't use brain", from some perspectives ....

1tisILeClerc · 20/09/2018 16:24

(left/right paradigm doesn't really apply in the New World Order ... which the whole Brexit saga has exposed.)
Whatever that means, unless it includes fries, I'm not buying it.

DGRossetti · 20/09/2018 16:26

In other less exciting news, Chris Grayling discovers that UK trains are crap, so rather than fixing the problems he is planning another review which will tell him,,,,, that the railways are crap

Those of a certain age will remember when nurses were paid so poorly there was a crisis in recruitment. The (then) Tory government splurged a fortune commissioning studies, despite the fact that every newspaper in the land had it as a headline over a few months.

Finally, they decided they needed to do something about it, and spend some money on the problem ... on an advertising campaign.

That said, if you could emigrate, or work abroad, there was a good wage to be had in the US and Australia. I wonder if there are any US/Aus MNetters who were part of that diaspora ?