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Brexit

Westministenders: Conference Season

975 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2018 10:44

Party Conference Season has officially started. What happens could be utterly crucial for Brexit since Brexit isn't about the EU its about internal party divisions and the politics of personality.

Starting off in the Yellow Corner
The Lib Dems proposals for associate membership and a leader outside the HoC. We know that they support exit from Brexit but what is striking is the shake up of the party seems to be the only thing drawing attention and there is a distinct lack of talk of anything else - including Brexit. Yet there are hints of a tiny shift back to the LDs as Labour and the Conservatives implode despite the LDs having lost all direction. If they can find one then maybe they can throw spanners into the works further down the line.

Moving over to the Red Corner in Liverpool
The Labour Party strife and squabbling gets to be airred in full view in Liverpool; the ongoing anti-semitism row which seems to have no end in sight, the rising issues over women's rights, various Labour MPs being no confidenced in an attempt to deselect them and Brexit policy or more correctly lack of Brexit policy. Thornberry has stated that Labour will vote against any deal May puts forward seemingly in order to trigger another GE. This has been denied as being official policy, but she's a front bencher who hasn't been slapped down for disobedience by Corbyn. There are lots of rumours flying around about the party leadership being under pressure to change direction on Brexit so her comments might be push back against that. Word is that various trade unions and perhaps even Momentum are looking to push for another referendum and a much more pro-remain or explicit EEA policy.

And then there's the Blues...
Where to start with them??

Talk has changed from not whether there will be a leadership challenge to open and widespread discussion from moderate party loyals about when there will be one.

Its been said that a challenge isn't expected at conference nor straight after; the feeling is May will be left to sort out the withdrawal backstop agreement in October at least before being rudely dumped. But don't count on it. Especially in the party of backstabbers.

There's been lots of movement around Johnson too. Former close advisors say he's on self destruct but will still probably be PM. There's the break up of his marriage. There's the complete failure of his time in the foreign office where its hard to see what he actually did apart from upset people. There's his outrageous comments which seem in the style of Steve Bannon. There's talk of him suddenly apparently showing Brexit regret. For me there is one question, which seems very similar to Brexit itself: Boris Johnson has spent so much time and effort into the game of becoming PM, what thought has he given to what he actually does when he has achieved it? Its almost as if there is no plan for that...

Then theres the ERG, with their alternative Brexit White Paper which includes the magic Irish 'Not a Border but Looks Just Like a Border' Solution. Its supported by just about every Tory MP you'd put in a horror cabinet of heartless cold out of touch bastards, who would drive 20 miles out of their way rather than pass through a council estate. But even their stance seems to be softening; talk of aligning NI closely with EU - particularly with agrifoods seems to be moving away from a position compatible with a US trade deal.

And finally the original Tory Rebels, who like everyone else are firmly sticking their fingers up at May's Chequers Deal. Several have said they would support a People's Vote if May doesn't get her head out of her arse and admit the idea is a dead duck.

Look out for more 'non-Tory' style policy plans coming out over the next couple of weeks, like the talk of renationalising the railways.

So what does this mean for Brexit?
Well nothing and everything.

None of this changes the EU position. None of this changes the realities of the negogition process and the 29th March deadline.

It just is in some ways the final party show downs before decisions start HAVING to be made. Party fractures are going to be tested to their limits and the chances of it getting nasty, with the stakes being so high, are high.

I wouldn't like to call ANYTHING unless the conclusion of the conferences.

Its something we don't need as a country. Waiting for this lot to get their shit together has doomed the country.

The Recession is coming. It can not be stopped now. Regardless of what happens over Brexit. Its too late. We can only mitigate the scale of it.

This is the part just before the 2008 crash when people were saying what was about to happen, but everyone ignored. The accepted narrative now is that 'no one could have predicted the crash'. Except they could and they did. Its just that no one wanted to listen.

This is the part just before Iraq where thousands protested and were not listened to, because a politician had it in his head that it was the best option, but he had no real plan for what happened next.

This is the part when people said PFI was a spectactularly bad idea. But it kept being used over and over and over again by all political parties because it was politically easier in the short term.

Enjoy this Christmas.

Next year is going to be a rough old ride for a lot of people.

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2018 22:55

Well,, of course Farage is posing - his history clearly shows his far right views

However, under all the showmanship, he carefully stays inside the law and avoids associating with fascist street mobs like DFLA and EDL

If there is civil unrest post-Brexit ... and then a Labour govt, he doesn't want to end up interned
< which is why he feels safe being pals with Trump & the US far right - no UK govt dares to seriously annoy the US >

woman11017 · 17/09/2018 23:10

it can only be invoked under certain emergency circumstances
Smile BigChoc One just wonders.......on the basis of previous form.....
he carefully stays inside the law
What a piece of work is that man.

mathanxiety · 18/09/2018 04:47

Ukrainian refugees who'd fled from Stalin's repressions

A lot of the Ukrainians who 'fled' to the west right after WW2 were members of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) and their hangers-on.

www.ukrainiansintheuk.info/eng/01/former-e.htm
Not so much fleeing Stalin's repressions as their just desserts, perhaps.

www.axishistory.com/axis-nations/119-germany-waffen-ss/germany-waffen-ss-divisions/1295-14-waffen-grenadier-division-der-ss-ukrainische-nr-1
Known war crimes

The SS-Kampfgruppe Beyersdorff, commanded by SS-Obersturmbannführer Friedrich Beyersdorff, was took part in anti-partisan operations in southeastern Poland in early 1944 and was involved in several war crimes against civilians. Including in Chodaczkow Wielki 862 civilians were killed on 16 April 1944, in Podkamien where about 500 civilians were killed in February, in Poturzyn were 162 civilians were killed on 1 April and in Prehoryle where 38 civilians were killed on 8 March.

On 28 February 1944 the Polish village Huta Pieniacka was attacked, the inhabitants killed and the village burned down and it is generally accepted that soldiers from this division was involved though Ukraine sources disagree on this, instead placing the blame with German-manned units. The estimates of victims range from 500 to over 1200.

It should be noted that Volyn (aka Volhynia/Wolyn) and eastern Galicia were the scene of Polish-Ukrainian conflict, confrontation, massacres and possibly genocide from the 1930s to the end of WW2 (at which point the Ukrainians had gained the upper hand, had learned from participation in the auxiliary police and other Nazi formations, and made the most of it).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

Motheroffourdragons · 18/09/2018 07:42

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/09/2018 08:08

mother Of course you can feel it's unfair Scotland doesn't receive the same deal as NI:

Both countries votes Remain, both populations are being steamrollered by the English Leave vote and both will suffer economically from this.

An arrogant Westminster govt treats Scotland with contempt, like a colony, but chooses to keep crawling to the loathsome DUP to stay in power.

I fully sympathise with you - I just recognise the legal and international facts make the 2 cases very different.

NI has a much better case, that is internationally recognised:

. international law - the GFA
. long history - Ireland was brutally conquered and has violently resisted the occupation despite centuries of oppression
. recent history - a violent civil war over 30 years that could reignite
. EU responsibilities - the RoI has a vested interest in NI, but Scotland was not split by an occupier from any E27 member
. Scotland is not likely to become part of an E27 member country within the next few years / decades

The last point indicates the dilemma:

Either Scotland accepts it will always be over-ruled by England, or it votes next time for Indie

  • BUT this would bring further economic pain

Pride vs economics
< waits for pretty Wink >

BigChocFrenzy · 18/09/2018 08:12

I would fully support Scotland - and London - being special cases like NI

The E27 are probably very sympathetic to both and would probably love the City of London, especially, becoming an associate member !

However, they realise Westinster would go into full batshit war mode if they ever dared hint at this

BigChocFrenzy · 18/09/2018 08:15

UK seafarer certification under threat from 'no deal' Brexit, warns Union

As we've posted, this is certification for captains, crew, ship etc travelling outside the UK,
similar to the aviation concerns

https://www.nautilusint.org/en/news-insight/news/uk-seafarer-certification-under-threat-from-no-deal-Brexit-warns-union/

The Union, which represents more than 22,000 maritime professionals,
says the technical notice on seafarer qualifications issued by the government dodges important questions about the long-term arrangements for mutual recognition
and reveals that the UK is unprepared for a 'no deal' Brexit.

Failure to resolve the potential threat to the employability of UK seafarers could put thousands of jobs at risk, the Union says.

Motheroffourdragons · 18/09/2018 08:16

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

missmoon · 18/09/2018 08:18

If London gets a special deal then there will be immense pressure for other adjacent towns (Oxford, Cambridge, parts of the M4 corridor) to join in.

prettybird · 18/09/2018 08:29

Re the economic impact I'll just say that the economic impact of leaving the UK to rejoin the EU would probably be less damaging for Scotland than staying in the decaying UK Grin

And it would increase our sovereignty, as we would finally gave a voice that is actually listened to! HmmAs an English not very close friend said to me last week (long term resident of Scotland - she raised the topic with me when I was visiting her photographic exhibition of 40+ ladies in swimming costumes being happy and comfortable in their skins and had no idea of my views), "it's all about self-determination". Grin

On seafarer certification, could it possibly be that the government "No Deal" papers haven't really understood or even looked at seriously the full implications of "No Deal"? HmmConfused Shock Shoorely not Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 18/09/2018 08:34

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/17/uk-needs-darkest-hour-in-brexit-talks-before-giving-ground

The British government will have to experience its “darkest hour” and stare into the abyss of a no-deal Brexit
before it will cave in to Brussels demands, senior EU diplomats have predicted.

Ahead of a summit of EU leaders in Salzburg, diplomats in Brussels privately warned that Theresa May still needed to make a significant shift on her red lines for a deal to be possible, with the Irish border issue remaining a major hurdle in the talks.
...
Emmanuel Macron, wanted to nail down the key terms of the future deal now, rather than allow any ambiguous drift on the major issues after 29 March 2019.
< with this govt of twisty weasels, I'd want everything nailed down in the deal, too ! >

BigChocFrenzy · 18/09/2018 08:40

In a Federal UK, as I have long advocated

  • either an elected upper house with 25 senators per Uk nation, or just a council of the 4 elected leaders -

it would not be allowed to leave / join the EU, Nato, or participate in wars etc without the agreement of all 4 nations
i.e. 75%+1 in the upper chamber / council could block such proposals from the govt & HoC

BigChocFrenzy · 18/09/2018 08:42

oops, pre-cocoa brain fart ! Blush

75%+1 to pass major changes
25% to block them

DGRossetti · 18/09/2018 09:04

Why federal and not Commonwealth ?

Peregrina · 18/09/2018 09:05

Economic impact vs pride: could that not have been said about Ireland in 1922?

woman11017 · 18/09/2018 09:17

darkest hour” and stare into the abyss of a no-deal Brexit
Anyone think that Carney's 35% house drop warning was code for stability/surival of BoE?:

DGRossetti · 18/09/2018 09:21

Anyone think that Carney's 35% house drop warning was code for stability/surival of BoE?:

No idea, but I did see a Telegraph "story" along the lines of "Will Carneys dissing of Brexit damage the BoEs reputation ?" which struck me as a pot/kettle situation really. Not that I'm denying the Telegraph has a reputation ....

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 18/09/2018 09:23

Listening to R4 again this morning and there was some relatively serious discussion about the very negative impacts of “no deal”, including chaos and price inflation. Seems as if their tone is changing?

bellinisurge · 18/09/2018 09:25

Hopefully the shit is starting to get real. To quote Bad Boys.

woman11017 · 18/09/2018 09:32

pot/kettle It's the PotKettle Plan. 'Your crime is the one I'm committing.'

Hasenstein · 18/09/2018 09:35

mathanxiety

"A lot of the Ukrainians who 'fled' to the west right after WW2 were members of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) and their hangers-on."

I'm sure that's true, but I was just reporting what I was told at the time. I may have been a bit gullible to believe the line being spun, but then I was only about 10 at the time and hadn't had time to develop the carapace of cynicism I now proudly wear. Grin

Anyway, back to the bastards of Brexit ...

Thomasinaa · 18/09/2018 09:36

Pretty - when does a long term resident of Scotland stop being English and become Scottish?

prettybird · 18/09/2018 09:45

When she decides to self-identify as Scottish Wink - which she probably would after independence as she wants a Scottish passport! Grin

My dad still has a South African accent after over 50 years here Shock - but as far as he is concerned, he is Scottish. Smile

HesterThrale · 18/09/2018 09:47

Yes, there might be a lot of English people who wished to migrate to Scotland if it managed to get back in the EU. I'd have sympathy if they were Remainers.

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 18/09/2018 09:59

As a long term non-Scottish-born resident of Scotland I thought the Scottish Govt position during the last indyref (iirc that anyone living in Scotland at the time of independence could henceforth be Scottish) showed a very inclusive and decent attitude.