An open letter to leavers

[LoveInTokyo]

Dear Leavers

I’m sorry that David Cameron offered us a referendum and promised to respect the outcome, whatever it was.

Unfortunately, he was fucking with you.

He promised that referendum when he didn’t think he stood a cat’s chance in hell of getting a majority, and never thought he’d actually have to deliver on it. When he got his surprise majority, he made a big show of going to Brussels and pretending to negotiate with the EU to get us a “better deal”. Unfortunately, he already knew perfectly well that the UK already had a better deal than any other country in the EU, and that they were not going to bend over backwards to get us to stay. So he made a big show of negotiating and then tried to pretend that he had done something meaningful. He then went through the motions of holding a referendum, half-heartedly campaigning to remain. He did absolutely no contingency planning, partly because he never believed that leave would actually win, and partly because he already knew that he had no intention of staying to deal with the fallout if they did. That’s why he resigned the day after the referendum and waltzed off, whistling a merry tune.

He played a high risk game of poker with our money, and lost.

I understand that many of you feel defensive about your decision and dislike being labelled “thick” by angry remainers. As a remainer myself, I feel saddened and frustrated that none of you seem able to articulate any benefits that will actually come out of Brexit. But at this stage, I would quite happily accept that there will be no benefits, and settle for damage limitation. Unfortunately none of you seem able to explain how we limit the damage either.

We cannot leave the single market and customs union without there being a hard border in Ireland, which will put people’s lives at risk. We cannot leave the single market and customs union without severely damaging most sectors of the economy, which would cause untold hardship for millions of people living in the UK. I realise that remaining in the single market and customs union would make leaving the EU pointless, but it is the only way to limit the damage.

The government has made almost no progress towards getting a workable deal in place, and time is running out. We don’t have the infrastructure in place to ensure that supply chains of essential food and medicine will not be disrupted after Brexit day. We don’t have a plan to ensure that planes will still be able to take off and land, or that satnav will still work. We do not have any trade deals lined up. We simply do not have time to do any of these things.

Dear leavers, you do not have solutions to any of these problems, and more importantly, neither do Theresa May, Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Andrea Leadsom, Daniel Hannan, Jeremy Corbyn, Kate Hoey or any of the people who claim to think Brexit is the right choice for the UK.

A no-deal Brexit is unthinkable. It is not an option.

I realise that many of you will feel betrayed if we do not get the kind of Brexit you want. But to be honest, you’re going to feel betrayed even if you do get the kind of Brexit you want, because it will be unimaginably shit. This is not "project fear", it is "project reality".

The government has a duty to act in the best interests of the country as a whole. It’s not good enough to lay the blame at David Cameron’s door and say he held the referendum so we have to respect the vote. David Cameron has been out of office for two years. It is now plainer than ever that leaving the EU is a terrible idea, and there is still time to put the brakes on and not go through with it. If the government goes through with this when they could put a stop to it, they cannot continue to blame David Cameron and claim that their hands were tied. They are not.

It is time for Theresa May to do the decent thing and say, “I’m sorry, I know it’s what the people voted for, but it simply can’t be done without causing a totally unacceptable amount of harm to the country. And I have a duty of care towards everyone, not just the 51.8% who voted leave.”

Someone on one of these endless threads (or maybe twitter, I lose track!) talked about WTO rules. Basically, WTO rules means following rules imposed by 128 other countries, who are way more different from UK than any EU27 member. The WTO arbitration process is very slow & for many reasons likely to get even slower in future, the outcome is really only offers rights to impose high tariffs in return. Under WTO rules, Everyone else has to impose high tariffs on Uk goods even if UK imposes no tariffs on their exports (in absence of formal treaty). EU trade regulations are a lovely safe harbour compared to "trading on WTO terms".

Yes frumpety that is entirely how our sovereign parliament works. Parliament can not be bound even by a previous parliament.

The referendum was advisory. Parliament is sovereign so it can make the final decisions.

This is not me making this up to annoy you these are the rules of the sovereign parliament of the U.K..

You might not like it but those are the rules. I am slightly staggered that someone who lives in the U.K. who supports parliamentary sovereignty has so little knowledge of the U.K. constitution.

Well that's a lie, I have explained this so often to so many Brexit supporters my predictive texts just says it for me.

Business exporting to the EU - ok I see your point 8% of businesses export to the EU making up about 44% of trade.

However, a hairdresser does not trade with the EU but would have to abide by rules and 'Red tape' do you really want all those rules gone? A hairdresser can only use certain EU approved products - do you want those rules gone?

An electrician does not trade with the EU but do you want all the rules they might have to follow dismantled?

We will have to take on wholesale all the EU rules. I keep on saying this but it remains true red tape saves lives. Legislators saying which hair dye, and what type of electrical cables you use are really important.

The EU forced us to use the metric system - good! My kids couldn't believe the USA and the imperial system they howled with laughter at how ineffective and old fashioned it was.

So Moussemoose TM and the rest of Parliament could actually choose to stop this charade at any time , because of SOVEREIGNTY ?

Absolutely, if a majority in Parliament vote to ignore the referendum and abandon article 50 then that is what would happen. Doesn't even have to be the government, just a majority in Parliament.

The House of Lords might hold it up, but a majority in the House of Commons is sovereign.

It won't happen for political reasons but that would be entirely constitutional.

There are actually remarkably few checks and balances in the U.K. constitution. An elective dictatorship in fact.

Dont want to rain on anyone's parade here but none of this is going to happen, as much as i detest it, we are leaving, with or without a deal.

Personally i hope its without a deal, i'm reasonably well off and as i ve said before, if it means the less well off (predominately leavers) lose their jobs/benefits and homes etc then tough, i just hope my taxes dont have to go up to pay for their fuck up.

Brilliant ! so Parliament can continue being SOVEREIGN and look out for the best interests of 74% of the population by voting to revoke Article 50 Moussemoose

jasjas it isn't going to happen

So we follow the regulations of the other 60 countries then
No a company follows the regulations of the country that they export into. Why do you think companies should follow expensive EU rules when they dont export into them?

unlike the EU regulations which we voted for I am sorry when did the UK vote to accept all EU regulations for the end of time? I think we just voted against them.

An electrician does not trade with the EU but do you want all the rules they might have to follow dismantled?
No I want the UK to regulate them. You know the parliament that is supposedly sovereign to the UK!

There are actually remarkably few checks and balances in the U.K. constitution. An elective dictatorship in fact.

Moussemoose, can parliament change how long it sits for?

Parliament did change how long it sits for. The coalition government introduced the Fixed Term Parliament Act in 2011 - this said elections had to be every 5 years - the dates fixed in advance.

Then Parliament changed its mind.

The next election is due on May 22nd 2022. Unless Parliament changes it's mind.

If a government chose to extend this period it would depend if it got a majority in the HoC. The Supreme Court may also try to flex its muscles if this happened.

A government with a large majority can do, more or less, anything it wants.

When trading outside the EU as the EU has trade agreements with many countries if you adhere to EU regulations you don't have to adjust the regulations to each specific country.

We voted for EU regulations via the European Parliament to which we elect MEPs. Also, we vote for EU regulations via the Council of Ministers. Additionally, we have negotiated with the EU and have agreements like the Single European Act which our sovereign parliament agreed and was voted on by MPs who we elect at General Elections.

One advisory referendum is not decisive. Sorry.

The U.K. does regulate EU legislation. MEPs sit on committees, our civil servants meet with their counterparts, our minsters vote on the Council of Ministers. It is a thoroughly democratic institution with plenty of checks and balances to ensure it is fair.

Please note this last point in reference to my comments about the U.K. parliament.

poster falcon5 Norway still have to accept FOM, so that’s not leaving the EU

We voted for EU regulations via the European Parliament to which we elect MEPs. Also, we vote for EU regulations via the Council of Ministers
When you stretch democracy so far from the voters, you subvert democracy. I doubt you would find many people in the UK who would say they had voted for most EU red tape.

Its undemocratic! And that is why we are leaving.

It's interesting how so many of you seem to think that EU red tape only affects such areas like Health and Safety, the environment or working practices.
As I said up thread rules and regulations from the EU impact on our lives in many other ways. The ones I have personal involvement are to do with carers assessments and the structure of the forms used and those used in council procurement. Neither of these have any relevance to trade or anything else to do with the EU.
I have also just come across another set of regulations which are particularly onerous on organizations trying to gain funding for the regeneration of poor communities. The difference in the applications for government funding, be it Scottish - because I am in Scotland or UK gov. funding and applying for EU funding are substantial in the extreme. Much of the capital funding from the EU we have looked at for a local project is only paid after the project is built - how does that work? In Scotland at the moment a substantial amount of EU funding hasn't been taken up and the gov. is frantically trying to find projects to use it on? If it isn't used in this financial year it will have to be handed back to the EU. I wonder how often this actually happens on an annual basis? Something that might not have become so apparent were it not for the fact that this source of funding is coming to an end.

‘Fancied a change’ - the reason I don’t engage much with people anymore.

Thanks Moussemoose. Slightly unnerving how dependent democracy is on parliament defending it.

poster falcon5 Norway still have to accept FOM, so that’s not leaving the EU

Don't be silly. Norway is not an EU member state. The EU is comprised of 28, soon to be 27, member states. Norway is not one of them. It is not perspective. It is a fact.

The relationship between Norway and the EU is better served by looking at the EEA and EFTA angles.

The free movement of persons is one of the core rights guaranteed in the European Economic Area (EEA), the extended Internal Market which unites all the EU Member States and three EEA EFTA States – Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway.

www.efta.int/eea/policy-areas/persons

Parliament voted by a majority of 384 to invoke article 50 - Labour had a 3 line whip to support.
wording of the letter - fully supported by 75% of MPs
That is why the United Kingdom does not seek membership
of the single market

Life in the UK was up until recently a monotonous sea of grey, depression in dispersed with financial strain and the collective hope for impending death.

So Brexit is offering some excitement I genuinely hope it will make life interesting

@RedneckStumpy you don't half talk some rot.

"I fancied a change" seems more honest with oneself than...

L: I hate the moon because it makes werewolves
R: The moon doesn't make werewolves because [facts]
L: I read that the moon makes werewolves in a story book
R: The moon doesn't make werewolves because [facts]
L: I heard that the moon makes werewolves from that bloke down the pub.
R: The moon doesn't make werewolves because [facts]
L: Humph, well perhaps I was mistaken about the moon making werewolves - BUT it doesn't matter because actually I hate the moon because it's made of green cheese!
R: The moon isn't made of green cheese because [facts]
L: I read that the moon is made of green cheese in a story book
^^

@RedneckStumpy - you and I will have to disagree on that one. Unless you are being funny, in which case .

@Rosstac well there were leave voters who thought they were voting for a Norway arrangement. Which is leaving the EU but retains FOM. There were actually people who voted leave who didn't care about FOM. And while it's now being presented as absolutely not an option it was being talked up before the referendum. Someone better than me with links may come along and post a lovely video of various leave campaigners talking up Norway model shortly.