Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

For EURef the boundary was clearly around the whole of the United Kingdom.

It clearly wasn't because Gibraltar had a vote, and is not part of the UK.

This is very thought-provoking Hullaballoo2
Thank you for sharing.

I suppose I’ve always thought it was more about the kind of ‘political project’ that the two unions represent. As part of the UK, Scots inevitably have to spend most of the time being ruled by the Tories (a right wing political party) that the Scots as a group simply never ever vote for.

The EU as a union, however, leans a bit more social democratic overall than the UK (especially a Tory-ruled UK, which we are most of the time). So it represents a union pursuing ideals (cooperation, solidarity etc) that perhaps more Scots are happy to sign up

I agree with you that the EU has been set up on ideals which could be deacribed as broadly left of centre / social democratic. But righr across Europe, there is an apparently burgeoning movement of populist (right wing) parties being elected to national government. They would admit that is partially in response to an EU supranational regime that is riding roughshod over national interests.

I suppose this could be fine if you have absolute faith in the EU remaining as some kind of benign dictator which will always do the right thing. But it's risky.

tabulahrasa
“So why are you so keen to run into the harem of this guy you hardly know?”
It’s not a guy we hardly know though

He's shagged you a few times and the sex was great. He may have even said "l love you". But I don't see him changing his FB status just yet or putting a ring on it for you. How long will you hold out hope? What makes you think he will be The One?

Peregrina

For EURef the boundary was clearly around the whole of the United Kingdom.
It clearly wasn't because Gibraltar
I should have said, the United Kingdom and other territories / islands and dependencies whose membership of the EU is due to their historical link with the United Kingdom.

“He's shagged you a few times and the sex was great. He may have even said "l love you". But I don't see him changing his FB status just yet or putting a ring on it for you. How long will you hold out hope? What makes you think he will be The One?”

I’m not even going with that analogy anymore, you’re making it weirder tha it was to start with.

Scotland knows exactly what the EU is like, exactly like England does we’ve just reached a different conclusion about whether we want to be in it.

tabulahrasa
The EU isn’t a new suitor...Scotland’s been in a polygamous marriage with the UK and the EU
Not true. Scotland is married to the UK. The UK is married to the EU for now The UK is divorcing the EU. Scotland was never married to the EU in its own right.

Scotland is choosing to stay with the EU.
You can't choose to stay married to someone you've never married. You will have to divorce your abusive husband and then see if your hero/rescuer will take you into his growing harem.

tabulahrasa
I’m not even going with that analogy anymore, you’re making it weirder tha it was to start with

I didn't come up with it. In fact I thought it was weird too but it seems to pass for reasoned debate and a logical case with many so I am happy to stick to to it.
My question is this..

Where have all the good men gone? And where are all the gods? Where's the streetwise Hercules to fight the rising odds? Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed? Late at night I toss and I turn. And I dream of what I need

I need a hero. I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night. He's gotta be strong. And he's gotta be fast. And he's gotta be fresh from the fight.

Scotland had trading relationships with what are now EU countries long before we were forcefully wed to England. The best way to resume those relationships is to join the EU. As I said, returning to our original family, not marrying a new man.

HirplesWithHaggis
Scotland had trading relationships with what are now EU countries long before we were forcefully wed to England.
Those were just a few childhood crushes and teenage fumblings and gropes behind the bike shed. You got to first base with some and even let one or two of them unhook your bra. I know you look back on them with fondness but, let's face it, they never came to anything.

If you want to change the past there are a few things you will need:

1. A DeLorean
2. A Flux Capacitor
3. 1.21 Gigawatts of power

The best way to resume those relationships is to join the EU. As I said, returning to our original family, not marrying a new man

Please tell me exactly when Hungary, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Slovenia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, were part of your "original family"?

I'm talking about family, and you're on about teenage fumblings? Urgh.

We have no need to change the past, what's done is done. An independent Scotland will be looking to the future. And of course the family has extended over three hundred years!

Actually Scotland historically had many trading links with the Hanseatic League, Scandinavian countries and the Auld Alliance, France. As well as Ireland.

There are many words in Scots and Doric that are Germanic or Norse - as well as place names, reflecting the trade and immigrants Ditto with the Auld Alliance.

Greece and Scotland share a patron saint.

Scotland and Brittany share a heritage of bagpipes and whisky

HirplesWithHaggis
I'm talking about family, and you're on about teenage fumblings? Urgh
I'm sorry, earlier you said "not marrying a new man". So I assumed the EU (your future, nice, kind loving husband), was someone with whom you had a past.

Now you're saying, the new hero husband to be (EU) is actually family?
You want to get married to a relative?

Are you 100% sure this analogy is the best one to convey your "logic" for joining the EU?

prettybird
But none of 'em married you..

No, Francine, my analogy went awry when I stupidly referred to a new suitor. That was a mistake, and I repent. So, using the new, and I think better analogy of returning to family after the end of a long marriage, there's no need for us to marry anyone.

Actually, they did Francine - and the current Queen of the UK is descended from them.

James III married Margaret of Demark (also known as Margaret of Norway) and the non-payment of the dowry is why Shetland is part of Scotland

@ prettybird, especially love the shared heritage of bagpipes and whisky !😁

prettybird
Actually, they did Francine - and the current Queen of the UK is descended from them.
Not in the "marriage" sense that was used by others above...i.e. the formal joining of two nations.

"Logic" in the form of Scotland as an abused but innocent wife was first proffered by ThisIsHistory but several of you thought it hit the spot...

The logic of leaving one Union to join another

A woman is forced to marry a violent man who then proceeds to treat her badly, ignores her wishes, disrespects her and publicly ridicules and humiliates her. Whilst stealing her money and resources and forcing her children to flee home. He does give her housekeeping money sometimes but never shuts up about how grateful she should be for this. He never acknowledges he stole a lot of her land and gave it to his kids at the exclusion of her kids.

However, she later meets a nice man, who asks her opinion, treats her with a bit of respect, and shows some appreciation of culture and education. She is actually attracted to this man.

So when the opportunity arises she leaves the man who forced himself on her and marries the one she actually fancies and has something in common with.

I am sad that you are abandoning this so soon.

I'm sorry to disappoint you. Are you utterly wedded to the marriage analogy, or ar you able to flex a bit and continue with the family one?

Actually, we don't really need to continue the conversation at all, do we? You are a dedicated Leaver and can't see why we're not. You do understand why we want to leave the UK, though. Just accept that, as unfathomable as it is to you, what we want is different.

@Babdoc
Which incidentally wasted £6million if taxpayers’ money. If they want another, they can bloody well pay for it themselves!
Believe it or not, Scottish people are taxpayers too!

I haven’t RTFT – life’s too short I’m afraid – but I have to say what’s shone out of the bits I’ve read is how the OP’s posts embody the very arrogance of WM. I’m English and I have no problem seeing that it could well be a very good thing for Scotland to both leave the UK and apply to rejoin the EU, and I can well understand why they might want to do so, and I also think it’s been said more than once in this thread and in many different ways. But the OP insists that she’s not seen a good argument for it, refusing to countenance the possibility that the arguments she’s seen here are perfectly good to the people who’ve made them. It’s this inability to entertain other people’s viewpoints that has created this mess and when OP insists on ‘logic’ I suspect her of at least slight disingenuousness. One person’s logic can easily look bonkers to another person, and OP, you are not the arbiter of what is and isn’t logic. You seem unable to accept that Scots have the right to make a choice they believe in.
For what it’s worth if Brexit happens, and if Scotland becomes independent of the UK and rejoins the EU, I’d consider trying to move to Scotland if they’d have me. And I speak as someone who finds the lack of light a serious winter drawback. But I find what’s happening in Westminster intolerable. And extremely undemocratic, too.

@onalongsabbatical. You'll be made very welcome. A vast number of pro independence voters are English staying (we say staying, not living) in Scotland. I suspect they see the Westminster effect, that Scotland is largely ignored, at times despised by those in Wasteminster and their supporters.

Thank you @S0upertrooper I say if they'll have me as I'm past productive working age now and I'm not sure Scotland would want an influx of pensioners with no connections to the country other than an emotional affinity - it's very hard to see what the future holds anywhere at the moment. But I'll certainly be cheering Scotland on if they/you pull off leaving the UK and rejoining the EU. You won't know yourselves without Westminster round your necks, IMO. It would be Brexit's silver lining - and that would go for Northern Ireland, too.

onalongsabbatical

I have acknowledged several pp for sharing what came across as a cogent and well thought through rationale for the solving the apparent contradiction in "I want my independence, freedom, autonomy and self determination" with "I want to surrender my independence, freedom, autonomy and self determination" .

Even it were to join, Scotland would have one seat on the European Council (a body with no legislative power), one seat on the European Commission, and the whole of Scotland has just one seat in the European Parliament (compared with 59 parliamentary seats in Westminster).

Part of the problem of what passes as intelligent debate these days is that we have allowed the vociferous expression of opinion and emotion go unchecked - for to question, test, probe and scrutinise is deemed disingenuous at best or to be told "Awa an tak a fuck tae yer self, hen" (apologies if my Scots is not 100% accurate there)

To me, these are both ways of saying the same thing.
"I've put my fingers in my ears. Look! La la la! I can't hear you! La la la!"