Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

In the 1979 Scottish Independence referendum, 52% voted in favour of independence. This was then blocked by Westminster due to not having more than 40% of the total electorate voting for such a monumental change. Less than 40% of the total electorate voted for Brexit, yet the result was allowed as a simple majority vote.

You set the rules for each vote.

Weren't the 'rules for Brexit that it was an advisory referendum, and also that it's not legally binding?

See this comment from HirplesWithHaggis is very telling...

And what is "illogical" about wanting to leave an abusive spouse?
There is absolutely nothing logical about claiming an emotion laden metaphor is objective fact. It's a story you're telling - a fairy story at that. Retelling it will not turn it into objective, verifiable fact.

"Especially when there is a far more welcoming alternative suitor"

It reads like a cheap Mills&Boon romance! What evidence can you share that the "alternative suitor" is welcoming? Or that he even actually "fancies you" or would take you into his "harem" and that you would then "live happily ever after?"

*Apologies for continuing this analogy but it is clearly the most favoured here and constitutes "logic" in the minds of SNs. So we'll stick to it for now.

There's an SNP position on this thread? Who knew?

There are supporters of independence on this thread, some.more enthusiastic than others. Supporters of indy may vote SNP, and some may even be members, but that doesn't make our arguments SNP arguments.

Keeptrudging

Weren't the 'rules for Brexit that it was an advisory referendum, and also that it's not legally binding

I believe so. But that is not the topic of this particular thread.

X posted. The analogy of abused spouse may not be "objective fact" but that's the nature of analogies. The coertion and subsequent abuses are, however, provable fact. Start with the Alien Act 1707.

Your statement was 'you set the rules for each vote'. I was replying to that statement.

HirplesWithHaggis

There's an SNP position on this thread? Who knew?

The title of the thread refers to"Scottish Nationalists" (the point of view that Scotland should be an independent nation).

I referred to this as Scottish Nationalism or SN for short.

If I wanted the view of the Scottish Nationalist Party I would watch videos of Nicola Sturgeon but I would rather boil my head

Well I think the marriage analogy is a bit weird, but, if we do run with it...

The EU isn’t a new suitor...

Scotland’s been in a polygamous marriage with the UK and the EU, they’ve not been happy with the UK for a while and now the UK has decided its divorcing the EU, so Scotland is choosing to stay with the EU.

Yes, Francine, the title refers to SN. But your post above says SNP. It's ok to make a typo.

Obviously there is no "SNP position" on your specific question, the bad marriage analogy certainly isn't.

Scotland isn't in the EU. I honestly don't understand this whole argument. Unfortunately, we're leaving the EU.

So how can we choose the EU over UK? It isn't an available choice.

Keeptrudging
Your statement was 'you set the rules for each vote'. I was replying to that statement

I appreciate that. But I believe the topic (of referendum rules) has been discussed and legally challenged etc. Personally I think the cries of "But it was only advisory!" have had their chance to make their case (before triggering Article 50 and the subsequent vote in Parliament). That ship has sailed. Accept it and move on.

It's an available choice if/when we're independent.

So it's another gamble? There is absolutely no way of guaranteeing that Scotland would ever be able to join the EU.

I’m English and pro remain. I remember thinking at the time of the Scottish Independence ref that I could 100% understand why many Scots would want to leave the UK.

I suppose I’ve always thought it was more about the kind of ‘political project’ that the two unions represent. As part of the UK, Scots inevitably have to spend most of the time being ruled by the Tories (a right wing political party) that the Scots as a group simply never ever vote for.

The EU as a union, however, leans a bit more social democratic overall than the UK (especially a Tory-ruled UK, which we are most of the time). So it represents a union pursuing ideals (cooperation, solidarity etc) that perhaps more Scots are happy to sign up to. Plus, whether we like it or not, History matters to people.

Interested to know whether any actual Scots share my view on this of course!

There's no reason Scotland wouldn't be accepted into the EU. Our laws etc are all compliant and Verhofstadt said just the other week that it wouldn't be a problem. Spain have said they wouldn't veto, and right at the.moment are so pissed off with WM re Gibraltar they would welcome us with open arms just as a "fuck you". Our situation is not the same as Catalonia.

But your post above says SNP. It's ok to make a typo. Thanks. I did not mean the SNP (the official view of a political party). I meant People who want Scotland to be an independent nation and ALSO want Scotland to be part of the EU

Obviously there is no "SNP position" on your specific question

Doesn't the SNP want this (Scotland to be an independent nation and ALSO be part of the EU)?

The bad marriage analogy certainly isn't
It was brought up by you (several times and others) as the "logical justification" of this position.

Yes, Hullabaloo, you've pretty much got it. :)

Hullaballoo I'm Scottish, and agree with you. I think a lot of people don't get that our political stance is generally different, and much more aligned to EU general stance. We are already in the EU as part of UK. Other countries waiting to join are not. There is support from EU members for Scotland, but nobody can do anything publically whilst Brexit negotiations are in process. Scotland has to vote for independence first. If they do, then EU members can be vocal. Meantime, good links and relationships are being built behind the scenes. It's only in the UK that Nicola Sturgeon gets the derision and bad press, she's well-respected elsewhere, in contrast to Theresa May, who gets positive press here and derision out with UK.

Scottish Nationalists aren’t anti-English by and large. We are massively anti-Westminster however. Many Scottish independence supporters are English and they have their own group who attend the rallies in not insignificant numbers.

The anti-English myth is handy for the hate stirring media.

HirplesWithHaggis
The analogy of abused spouse may not be "objective fact" but that's the nature of analogies. The coertion and subsequent abuses are, however, provable fact. Start with the Alien Act 1707

I have no doubt that there have been inumerable historical abuses. Indeed. I have stated (several times) that if the Scottish people vote for independence I would wish them well.

So to be crystal clear (and to continue your analogy)...

I appreciate and have sympathy for some of the reasons to escape your abusive husband. I understand this might mean divorce. But given you can't move physically, what makes you sure that running into the arms of your Mr Nice Guy Rescuer is the right thing to do? Given all the abuse you've suffered wouldn't it be better to be single? You're adamant that you don't need another man in your life. So why are you so keen to run into the harem of this guy you hardly know? You don't even speak the same language! Are you sure this isn't just a holiday fling that you are turning into something more? It could be like Deidre and Hassan all over again. I am only asking because I care about you.

Got it in one @Hullaballoo2

Francine I'm not an SNP member and don't know all their ins and outs on policy. I think you could be right but also see they're being urged not to focus on that too hard in indyref campaigning for fear of alienating Leave Yessers. So I am.not sure and can't comment.

You're very fixated on this "logical" thing but don't accept what we say. From our pov, the Union was forced upon us against our will (there was rioting in the streets and of course we still complain about having been sold for a pocket of English gold) and while there have undeniably been good times during the marriage it's becoming increasingly abusive over the years, to the point we can't overlook or excuse it any more. Circumstances right now are such that we either leave the UK or sink into a Brexit mire/leap off the cliff like Thelma and Louise.

Maybe Brexit will indeed lead to sunny uplands in ten, twenty, fifty years. But right now it looks like a total.disaster. I said upthread that I don't believe there's any such thing as total independence in this modern world and trade alliances are necessary. Leave agree, they want trade deals too. But within the EU our ability to strike trade deals (and to take advantage of extant deals) is far greater than if we're stuck out on the periphery with rUK with no trade deals with anyone at all. And what trade deals are offered (eg, Trump is/was up for an aviation deal, but what was on offer didn't include British airlines) are utterly inferior to what we already have.

So it's perfectly logical to say, this marriage isn't working and we have a chance to escape. The EU is not so much a bibulous Junker but rather an entire open armed family waiting to greet us and support us.

“So why are you so keen to run into the harem of this guy you hardly know?”

It’s not a guy we hardly know though...