Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

“But you could stand against her in Maidenhead at the election and give he voters a choice“

That’s not actually a mechanism for getting rid of a sitting PM though.

Motherbird
The President and his Commission may be removed from office by a vote of censure from Parliament.

Correct. The point I am making is that unlike general election - the ordinary voters have little power / say I who is appointed to this most powerful role.

tabulahrasa

“But you could stand against her in Maidenhead at the election and give he voters a choice“

That’s not actually a mechanism for getting rid of a sitting PM though.

Agreed that in my example above, you would have to wait until an election has been called. But once an election has been called - there are no MPs. If you fill out the paperwork and hey presto - Peregrina would be able to put her case directly to a constituency of ordinary people and give them a choice.

There is no mechanism in the EU constitution which gives ordinary people a say in the selection of either the President of the European Commission or the President of the Council of Europe - because neither one has a constituency of ordinary voters. These are the two most powerful roles in Europe and they are appointed by other politicians.

Surprise surprise. Francine can't be bothered to turn out to vote in the European elections. This is 'making a protest' or just being too lazy.
Now do tell me how I get rid of Theresa May as PM right now?

The nearest I might get to unseating May as PM would be to join the Tory party, but that didn't go to a party vote last time they changed leader.
Juncker is elected by his peers in the same way that May was elected by her peers - or not quite in that case, because the obvious candidate wouldn't stand, and the other who made it to the last two behaved idiotically, and I suspect the men in suits came for her.

“Peregrina would be able to put her case directly to a constituency of ordinary people and give them a choice.”

But she still couldn’t be PM, that would be decided by other politicians.

Francine, if you argue that all appointments are undemocratic then does that mean you don't accept the role of the government itself ? Ministers are not directly elected are they? The commission reports to the parliament which IS elected by EU citizens. Just because some elements of a democracy are indirect (as is the case here too) doesn't mean it's undemocratic. On the contrary, it's essential to have some bodies that can function without electoral pressures.

Motheroffourdragons
We don't have a say in who is PM of this country either
Yes you do. It's called a general election. If the sitting PM loses his her majority and is unable to form a coalition or agreement to govern - we get a new prime minister.

If I had my way I would prefer Phillip Lee in charge or Ken Clarke
Again - a democratic mechanism exists to allow that to happen. You would need to persuade them to make a challenge against TM within the rules of the Conservative Party (by getting enough letters to the Chairman of the 1922 Committee). This is happening right now I believe ( though I doubt tjpse two would be putting their hat in the ring).

There is a way. It can be done if there is enough will.

In almost every institution of the EU - there is no way regardless of how much will there might be.

This is what disillusioned Tony Benn about the EU. His diaries from the late 70's are eye-opening. There he was, an elected member of parliament, a member of the UK cabinet and a Secretary of State being ordered what to do by a European bureaucrat who had never been elected to anything ever but was in a job for life.

The EU has evolved since the 70s. How can you say TB's diaries would still be relevant?

Not being elected by the people does not been not being accountable. Two very different things.

tabulahrasa
But she still couldn’t be PM, that would be decided by other politicians

Yes that's true. But as Tony Benn often pointed out - the most precious gift of democracy is having the freedom to throw people out of power - even if you might not have the final, final say * on who is in power (mainly due to the system of parliamentary parties. This is why Thomas Jefferson was against parties. He thought every politician should run as an independent.

• This only happens presidential type elections where people all over the country get to vote for their choice.

“The EU has evolved since the 70s.”

Unfortunately the UK electoral system hasn’t.

And according to Francine’s definition, I do not believe the UK is a true democracy.

I have always hoped Scotland won't leave the UK
and the horrendous mess of Brexit has illustrated again how complicated it is to leave an institution with which you have been joined for so many years.

imo, the UK should move to a Federal structure to survive:

so replace the HoL with an elected Senate that has say 25 senators from each of the 4 UK countries.
The US has a similar principle of a Senate with equal representation for each state, to counter their House of Representatives that is on a population basis.

However, I can understand why many Scots want to leave.
I can also understand why they find the UK union oppressive, but can still like being part of another union.
Westminster

Consider small countries and their power in the EU:
Look at the Republic of Ireland - blocking a Brexit deal until the UK agrees over the NI border

• much to the fury of the Uk govt & press !

The 26 other EU countries accept that this is a vital interest for the RoI.
This is an example of a small country getting EU backup against a country that would otherwise steamroller over them, as it did many times in the past.

Scotland sees how the RoI in the EU can stand up to Westminster.

Quietrebel
The EU has evolved since the 70s
Perhaps but not enough if you read very recent accounts of what it is like for our leaders (who are democratically elected in their member states) to deal with the EU. I would strongly recommend Yanis Varoufakis. The elected government of Greece was told to go fuck itself on three separate occasions because all the real power governing the future of Greece lay in Brussels, Frankfurt, and Berlin - not Athens. Ireland, Denmark and others have experienced similar.

History might show that if Junker had been more willing to compromise with Cameron we would never have been where we are today. But time and time again, any requests to the EU are met with a Non, Nein,

Please explain exactly what you think the EU should have compromised on.

Bearing in mind:

We already had the rebate.
We had already opted out of the euro.
We had already opted out of Schengen.
We had already opted out of the justice and home affairs common policies.
We had decided not to use the tools already available to us under EU law to curb free movement of workers, for example, by asking people to leave after three months of they weren’t self-supporting.

Peregrina
Surprise surprise. Francine can't be bothered to turn out to vote in the European elections. This is 'making a protest' or just being too lazy.

I don't vote in the elections to the EU Parliament because
a) I do not want to improve their voter turnout figures even by one.
b) I refuse in principle to vote for a "parliament" that lacks legislative initiative. MEPs do not get to make any European laws. They only get to vote on the limited options that the Commission deigns to give them
c) The European Parliament is regularly overruled / ignored anyway like the three times they have requested to end the charade of decampimg from Brussels to Strasbourg every third week)
d) I believe that not participating in a meaningless election is a more powerful protest and better use of my time than spoiling a ballot paper.

Tusk was appointed as President of the European Council (not the non-EU Council of Europe) by the elected leaders of each member State. He oversees the secretariat of the Council and follows the mandate set out by the Council itself, i.e. the leaders. They set the policy and direction of the EU.

Junker is president of the Commission. He is nominated by the elected heads of member states and formally elected or refused by the elected members of the EP. Out of interest, when did you last vote for the head of the UK Civil Service?

Just because the UK sends about a third UKIP, doesn't mean this reflects the calibre and function of MEP's even predominantly from the UK. Never mind overall.

As a 'talking shop', the EP will have a decisive vote on the Withdrawal Agreement and the transition period. What currently concerns the EP are citizens rights, both sides.

But Francine, my vote in UK general elections is utterly meaningless. Most of our votes in UK general elections are utterly meaningless unless we happen to live in a marginal constituency and vote for a party that has a chance of winning. If you don’t support the Tories or Labour there is almost no chance that the party you vote for will ever be in government. (And since Labour and Tories are both currently being controlled by irrational, ideological hard Brexiters hell-bent on destroying the economy, there’s precious little to choose between them.)

My constituency has been a Tory safe seat since the day it was created (before I was born). And yet, I still vote because I believe that if you don’t vote you have no right to complain.

“the most precious gift of democracy is having the freedom to throw people out of power“

Except the electorate can’t... not voting someone back in after they stand down at the end of a term is not throwing people out of power.

By the way successive British gov't's have never had a problem with these mechanisms. As a member state, they were part of the structures which gave rise to them. Also, the UK system is only one type of democracy. There don't have to be exact parallels.

Wouldn't it be an independent Scotland's sovereign decision whether they wish to pool some of their sovereignty with other countries or whether they wish to go in their own direction?

There is life outside the UK. An independent Ireland has developed and prospered by pooling some sovereignty with the EU.

As for Scotland being among unnatural bedfellows, if not part of an English ruled UK. Robert the Bruce referred to 'Our nation' talking the Scots and the Irish. In some plan to free Wales from England and end England's grasp of both Ireland and Scotland. As the many past centuries have shown, it wasn't a plan that worked.

Mildly amused that Francine is chuntering on about democracy and the ability to vote out the government, when it was pointed out upthread how very little influence Scots voters have over the flavour of gvt at WM. Much the same for the Welsh, I guess, since their Assembly is resolutely Labour, and god alone knows how the N Irish feel, they can't even vote for Labour, Tory or LibDems (although they currently have some influence via the DUP). Democracy in action, the will of the people...

Leavers have a very narrow view of democracy.

In their view, democracy means:

Respecting “the will” of 52% of those who bothered to vote in appallingly run referendum in which the winning side was subsequently found to have broken electoral law.

Not being bound by any legislation made on the other side of the English Channel.

Democracy does not mean:

All UK voters being adequately represented in parliament and having an equal opportunity to influence who forms the next government.

Having anything other than a binary choice between the Tories and Labour (whose policies are virtually identical these days).

Having a free press which holds the government to account and is allowed to scrutinise and criticise the Brexit process.

Having a free and independent judiciary who are able to uphold the law free from political interference and without being branded “enemies of the people”.

Being allowed to change our minds about Brexit.