Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

The NHS is losing highly-qualified EU staff in droves. Why would nurses from Sri Lanka choose to come and work here, where housing is very over-priced and in short supply? They can already work here with a visa. Quick Google suggests average wage in Sri Lanka is $1,619. This doesn't suggest it will be affordable for them to pay for visa/flights.

prettybird
Given that at the moment we have a brain drain down to the black hole magnet that is London

Why do you call London a black hole?

Would my question be clearer if I littered it with emojis?

Whys Labour doesn't need Scotland.

UK voted on winning side in EU Parliament 97.4% of the time 2004/09 and 86.7% 2009/15

It's pretty clear that Labour don't need Scotland when you see how they vote/don't do anything to protect Scotland's devolved powers/only start wooing us when it looks like we might leave.

An awful lot of "Scottish" Labour's antipathy towards the SNP is because the latter have "stolen" the votes, and therefore the power, that SL (and the rest of the party) had arrogantly assumed to be rightfully theirs in perpetuity. When setting up the Scottish Parliament, they deliberately chose the d'hondt electoral system in order to exclude the possibility of an SNP majority government - and then we broke it. They've never really forgiven us voters for that, but don't seem to have realised that continuous, easily debunked #SNPbad stories aren't the way to woo us back.

An indy Scotland could actually be the best thing for them, they could form a new party which doesn't have to consider the wishes of English voters over those of Scots and even gain some sort of credibility, but their eyes are too short sighted to see that.

It would be a long time (hell would probably freeze over) before I'd vote Labour again. In my area, they're on a very shoogly peg come next elections, given they're still suspended from the party and have majorly pissed off many hard-core Labour voters after going into coalition with the Tories.

It was actually Vince Cable, when he was Secretary of State for Business who talked about London being a black hole and how unhealthy that was for the UK as a whole.

There are many, many studies which talk about the growing inequality in the UK, with the South East/London overheating. Ironically, its growth as a financial centre in the 80s was funded in part by the North Sea oil (and gas) dividend which allowed Thatcher to reduce corporate taxation and provide incentives for financial companies to expand there.

Successive governments have failed to address these inequalities - and indeed have exacerbated them by dismantling or disempowering the regional development agencies. Ironically the EU with the ERDF which tried harder than our own government to help the poorer regions.

Other European countries have improved growth through investing in infrastructure and trying to address these disparities. It is also basic economics - which I can remember covering in my economics degree.

Here are a few articles to provide background (not expecting Francine to read them as they might answer her question don't fit with her premise, but others might be interested). One of them mentions HS2, which is yet another example about how spending in the South East counts as "national infrastructure" (and as such, outwith the Barnett calculation, despite the fact that it comes nowhere near Scotland ). Yet the £billions that the Government has budgeted includes the brand new infrastructure in London and the extra cost of tunnelling beneath wealthy Tory voters the Chilterns but not the cost of the infrastructure in Manchester which is expected not only to find its own funding but also give up acres of prime city centre real estate for the train line (it's "too expensive to tunnel" )

The Channel Tunnel was a similar example of "national infrastructure". Scotland was promised direct trains - even had a waiting lounge built at Central Station - as part of the financial package, but that was all quietly shelved.

https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/uk-regional-performance-an-increasingly-unbalanced-picture/

https://www.ft.com/content/b91d7d4c-2cb9-11e1-8cca-00144feabdc0

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/britains-spatially-unbalanced-economy/

Thanks for posting those links prettybird. So-called 'trickle-down economics' doesn't work (unless you happen to live in the SE).

LoveInTokyo

"2. Get rid of the EU Parliament completely (it is purely a rubber stamping body anyway)"

So you want to remove the most democratic arm of the EU? The only part of it we directly elect? And yet the leavers all whine about the EU being an “unelected dictatorship” or some such shit

Either give the EU parliament real power OR get rid of it. It was not part of the original design and was added later to give a sheen of democracy to an inherently undemocratic institution. MEPs have voted three time to decide where they should gather (Brussels / Strasbourg). They have been overruled every time. Given there is zero will to change this - I would call at the EU parliament for what it is - an expensive talking shop.

LoveInTokyo
"We only need one body at this level and it should be a lean, mean, efficient and focused as the equivalent for ASEAN."

People who understand how the EU works already understand this. Perhaps rather than reinventing the wheel we should be educating people about what the current system actually is and how it works. But not everybody is interested in being educated or informed. You can lead a horse to water

I think I have done a fair bit of research on how the EU is set up and works. I started as a very reluctant remainer and agreed that while it was far from perfect - we were better in than put. I read a lot about how the EU was designed, how it is funded, how decisions are made...The EU's own website is very informative.

I also read a lot of current and historic insider accounts about what the EU is like to deal with in practice - from Tony Benn to Yanis Varoufakis - even when you have a clear democratic mandate.

Motheroffourdragons
I don't know what your point is, seems pretty democratic to me

Please tell me what democratic means the ordinary citizen voters of Europe have of getting rid of the President of the European Commission*?

*Currently the bibulous and illustrius Jean-Claude Junker.

Keeptrudging

Why would nurses from Sri Lanka choose to come and work here? The average wage in Sri Lanka is $1,619

Because, like all economic migrants, they might be attracted by the opportunity to earn more here.

prettybird

It was actually Vince Cable, when he was Secretary of State for Business who talked about London being a black hole

Could you please share the specific link to where Vincent Cable calls London a "black hole"?

*prettybird
Successive governments have failed to address these inequalities - and indeed have exacerbated them by dismantling or disempowering the regional development agencies

Might one of these include the government in which Vincent Cable served as business secretary?

You're quite right - the exact quote was "London is becoming a kind of giant suction machine, draining the life out of the rest of the country" - which I had mis-remembered as "a black hole".

And no, I don't have much time for Vince Cable (or the Coalition Government). But at least he recognised the problem.

I'm actually quite enjoying Francine's attempts to land killer blows

Even though he or she is determined not to listen, he or she is providing plenty of opportunities for us to make the positive case for Scottish independence (whilst also challenging his or her anti-EU sentiments) and also demonstrating, in his or her arrogance and deliberate obtuseness, why we might want it.

I'm happy for him or her to continue

But I do agree with you Mother - his or her inability to google for his or herself is very irritating. And I can be my bottom dollar that he or she doesn't even bother reading the links he or she is given But that doesn't matter, as others may make the effort.

Motheroffourdragons

Please tell me what democratic means the ordinary citizen voters of Europe have of getting rid of the President of the European Commission.

The point is - no such mechanism exists. I was curious to see if an EU fan would have the good grace to acknowledge this fact. You gave me my answer.

prettybird

You're quite right - the exact quote was - London is becoming a kind of giant suction machine, draining the life out of the rest of the country - which I had mis-remembered as a black hole

Somehow had a feeling that someone who, at the time, had a constituency in the flight path of Heathrow would not be stupid enough to refer to London as a black hole.

Thank you for having he good grace to admit that this came from you.

London contributes far more to the tax revenues of the entire UK than it takes.

Francine, Go back to the original aim of the EU (allowing ease of trade)

That is not the entire aim of the EU or it's predecessors. The Treaty Of Rome was about more than just ease of trade. The Treaty of Paris (the European Coal and Steel Community) was the precursor.

In 1951, the Treaty of Paris was signed, creating the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC). The Treaty of Paris was an international treaty based on international law, designed to help reconstruct the economies of the European continent, prevent war in Europe and ensure a lasting peace.

It was always about more than just trade.

As ever you miss the point.

Try actually reading some of the links.

It's not a good thing that the UK economy is so unbalanced, with so much (and increasing) wealth concentrated in the South East. It actually damages the growth potential of the nation.

But

prettybird

I'm actually quite enjoying Francine's attempts to land killer blows smile

Even though he or she is determined not to listen, he or she is providing plenty of opportunities for us to make the positive case for Scottish independence (whilst also challenging his or her anti-EU sentiments) and also demonstrating, in his or her arrogance and deliberate obtuseness, why we might want it. grin

I'm happy for him or her to continue

When you got your economics degree, did your professsors give you extra marks for drawing pretty pictures of facial expressions the end of every other line?

It gives your already persuasive points even more cogency and eloquence.