Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

I see. Thanks.

I think Scotland should and will get it's independence first. Then Scotland will decide about the EU / single market / other type of access or none.

Its not it's - grrrr autocorrect

A country the size and power and funding of the UK found it impossible to influence unelected officials like Junker.

More like "A country the size and funding of the UK found it did not always get its own way when having to work with 27 other countries".

As for Labour, in opposition they have consistently failed to challenge this Tory government in any way. They have abstained and/or voted with the government. In the same way as Lib dems lost many of their core voters when they went into a Tory coalition, Labour have lost much of their core Scottish vote as they don't stand up for Scotland.

Keeptrudging More like "A country the size and funding of the UK found it did not always get its own way when having to work with 27 other countries.

I think there is a lot of truth in this.
If you believe in self determination (as a country), any transnational bodies have to be light touch. It's interesting that more Tories than Labour MPs were in favour of joining what was then the "common market" beacuse they believed at the time that it was going to be about trade.

I think if things had continued that way the EU would not be facing the issues it is today. At the heart of the EU's design is this desire for "ever closer union" which in my mind goes against the meaning of "independence".

Also the democratic inversion - the EU is (afaik) the only government where a nominated executive branch and an unelected civil service propose the laws. The elected MEPs only get to vote on what the executive branch and civil service allow them to vote on.

Personally I believe the people should have the power to get rid of the people making the decisions (executive branch) and replace them (at the ballot box). The civil service should be impartial.

Motheroffourdragons
I can't be bothered looking back at the data
Why does this not surprise me.

I can see your viewpoint, but how do you see this working in principle? If your issue is that the European Commission are not elected, how do you see an election process working? Should all EU citizens get to vote? How would that work in principle. Would all candidates from all countries be put on a ballot paper, in which case it would be meaningless as voters would just choose the candidate from their country? UK voters didn't vote for Theresa May, she was chosen by her party. MEPs are voted for by all.

Motheroffourdragons
If anybody that doesn't like it, I'm sure will be happily welcomed in the mother ship England

Yes they will. If the EU want to continue to play as hard as they have been -and let's face it
a) they don't need to play softly if they don't want to
b) they need to scare others off from following a similar path as the UK

...I genuinely hope that lots and lots of people DO come to England - especially if we can set ourselves up as the "Singapore of Europe"
Innovative
Vibrant
Business friendly
Low regulation
Low taxation
Friendly and welcoming to the brightest and the best (but not having uncontrolled immigration)

We need immigration. At the moment, the bulk of our immigrants come from European countries, after Brexit it's more likely that in the absence of EU employment regulations etc we will have more (cheaper) immigrants coming from countries out with the EU. I don't see that as a positive, more as a race to the bottom as the UK is forced to cut prices in order to compete in a non-EU market where goods are cheap and worker's rights/safety standards minimal.

Actually mother you've over-estimated Scotland's influence in GE results

It has never , since WW2, made a difference in the colour of a stable government installed in WM. It has, arguably, contributed to giving a couple of government's wafer thin majorities (eg Wilson's 1964 short-lived government), which then don't last the distance.

Even the current minority government is only in place thanks to the 13 (out of 59) Scottish Conservative MPs. But they didn't make as good a deal as the DUP and instead we have to endure Fluffy as SoS

How can you be the 'Singapore of Europe' when big businesses are already shutting up shop/moving back to Europe in response to Brexit?

Keeptrudging

I can see your viewpoint, but how do you see this working in principle?

1. Go back to the original aim of the EU (allowing ease of trade)
2. Get rid of the EU Parliament completely (it is purely a rubber stamping body anyway)
3. Clarify and codify the remit of the EU Commission and the EU Council - making it abundantly clear that Junker and Tusk are not the prime minister and president of Europe. We only need one body at this level and it should be a lean, mean, efficient and focused as the equivalent for ASEAN.
4. The golden rule of the EU should be "it's not about trade, it's not our business"
5. Everything else is the business of the independent sovereign states.

I don't think the EU would be in the mess it is in today (from Hungary, Poland, Austria etc) if it had stuck to its original principles.

Keeptrudging

How can you be the 'Singapore of Europe' when big businesses are already shutting up shop/moving ?

When we're out, by offering the same attractive business -friendly taxation rates and policies that made Ireland so successful (until it was told it couldn't by the EU).

Surely businesses wouldn't be leaving in their droves if they thought the promised land/all these great benefits were just around the corner? Most businesses look at long-term implications, don't they? Are they only moving back to EU on a temporary basis then?

1. Go back to the original aim of the EU (allowing ease of trade)

This is still the primary aim of the EU.

2. Get rid of the EU Parliament completely (it is purely a rubber stamping body anyway)

So you want to remove the most democratic arm of the EU? The only part of it we directly elect? And yet the leavers all whine about the EU being an “unelected dictatorship” or some such shit.

3. Clarify and codify the remit of the EU Commission and the EU Council - making it abundantly clear that Junker and Tusk are not the prime minister and president of Europe. We only need one body at this level and it should be a lean, mean, efficient and focused as the equivalent for ASEAN.

People who understand how the EU works already understand this. Perhaps rather than reinventing the wheel we should be educating people about what the current system actually is and how it works. But not everybody is interested in being educated or informed. You can lead a horse to water...

4. The golden rule of the EU should be "it's not about trade, it's not our business”

That pretty much is the “golden rule of the EU”, with a few exceptions such as the charter of fundamental human rights and a few justice and home affairs aspects (which the U.K. opted out of anyway).

5. Everything else is the business of the independent sovereign states.

See above.

You implied/estimated that 6% of results had had an influence - I'm saying that even that was an over-estimate

Keeptrudging

We need immigration. Agreed.

At the moment, the bulk of our immigrants come from European countries,
Correct and in numbers we chose not to control due to a very stupid decision made by the Blair government.

after Brexit it's more likely that in the absence of EU employment regulations etc we will have more (cheaper) immigrants coming from countries out with the EU. I don't see that as a positive,

I do. It's about having control of both numbers and skills. Why should it be easier for unlimited numbers of unskilled workers from Romania* to come and live here than say qualified nurses Sri Lanka or fintech developers from Canada?

• Part of the problem has been the influx of cheap unskilled labour from eastern Europe (where rents / property prices are one tenth of the UK), making easier for some employers to take advantage.

Very, very powerful argument.
You've won me over.

The original post about moving to Scotland wasn't mine Francine, but I
expressed agreement with that poster. If you disagree, it's no skin off my nose. No one is forcing you to agree.