Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

My point is that a significant minority of Scots have no opinion either way on brexit. So if the energy behind a new indyref is solely fuelled by anti brexit feeling, the result may not be what you wish for.

Scots aren't as passionately anti brexit as nationalists would have us think.

I'm a remainer, the brexit win margin is farcical. An utter disgrace.

But I assume you'd take those numbers as a decisive yes if that's how indyref had gone?

A significant number of my friends who were not particularly interested in politics are becoming strongly interested as Brexit progresses and they're starting to see the impact (higher food prices/poorer exchange rate when they're going on holiday, businesses closing/moving to EU countries). It's not even happened yet but is already having a negative impact.

I read some research which showed that Brexit related views in Scotland are similar to those in the wider UK. And that the much bigger remain vote was due to people following SNP policy. Not because they were inherently more pro-EU. I say that with reluctance, as I had assumed that people in Scotland are more liberal minded.

Can you link to this research? I haven't seen that, and would find it surprising. Nobody I know (myself included) voted because they were 'following SNP policy'?

Mother of four dragons: your argument that because the UK Government, in going for a hard Brexit, is showing that it doesn't care about damaging the country/citizens economically it's ok for Scotland to ignore arguments that Scottish independence will cause FURTHER economic harm to its citizens does you know credit. Scots will be on their knees after Brexit. We will need to be more careful about the economic situation, not less.

I was referring to this, from the London School of Economics:

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/01/31/what-do-scots-think-about-brexit-and-the-eu

There was a rumour that Mhairi Black 'held her nose' and voted remain. No idea if true. But given that the brexit upset seems the most likely trigger for indy2, its hardly a stretch to imagine that SOME people might have voted remain without caring either way, to fuel that.

Jim Sillars has said he'd vote no rather than go back into the EU.

See I don’t think the different vote in Scotland is really much to do with either Scottish opinion being particularly different or party politics.

Just a combination of having had way better information and discussion of what leaving the EU would mean in the run up to the independence referendum than there was for Brexit and the fact that there was no plan at all for what happened next.

After a 670 white paper was derided for not being thorough enough... Scotland collectively went, WTF do you mean there’s no plan at all?

Thanks Danniz, I hadn't seen that one. Interesting reading. Same research organisation who did the survey showing support for Scottish Independence is at a higher level than prior to last referendum.

Totally agree tabulahrasa re 'WTF, there's no plan'? What about expats, Ireland, Gibraltar, Cyprus, international anti-terrorism work, flights, medicine, fishing rights etc etc? Never mind people asking Scots 'what currency will you use' ad nauseum

I am on the fence about Scottish independence. I would love to remain or, if necessary, to go back into the EU. But the Scottish government needs to do a full and realistic analysis, as leaving the UK would inevitably be very problematic, and of course being in the EU would be likely to take a long time to negotiate and organise, and would be less beneficial as Scotland on its own than as part of the UK (when we are/were one of the big players, and had opt-outs).
I don't trust the SNP to do a realistic analysis - there is too much ideology there.
Of course, the worse things go after Brexit (and let's face it, it's looking extremely grim at the moment), the more attractive independence is likely to become. But we need to look long term (I don't mean decades, but I do mean a good few years - leaving the Union is a massive decision).
Emotionally, I now feel much more sympathetic to the idea of independence than I did even last year, but I would like to see a really detailed debate, and an assurance from the EU that Scotland would be allowed in before too long.
When I talk to Scottish nationalists I know socially, the ideology puts me off a lot. I am sick to death of English nationalism, and I'm not sure that Scottish nationalism is that much better.

Do people think that WM will allow another independence referendum after Brexit? What will happen if they refuse? They do appear to be capable of anything - arguing with them may prove ineffective.

We’d be an equal partner which were not in the U.K.

How is all the European food etc going to get to Scotland? Doesn't it all come over the Channel?

We’ve got some lovely ports you know 😂

And our aircraft would still be flying.

Rosyth, or any other of Scotland's numerous ports. There's currently a new port being built in Aberdeen. Scotland could be fairly self-sufficient in food given the volume it produces. Foods which are imported are mainly ones which can't be grown here. Foods which are exported tend to be luxury items. I think it would be great if all Scottish produce was exported through Scottish ports, it would mean it was all included in Scottish export figures, as opposed to now, where it is counted as English exports if it goes through an English port, which somewhat skews figures. We've got the same issue with oil pumped offshore (so not piped to shore) not being included in Scottish production figures, which also skews figures.

Not sure Leith and Ardrossan are quite so accessible to continental drivers? They require overnight ferry journeys.

Massive logistical changes needed if we're going to cut England out of our supply route.