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Brexit

Westministenders: High Drama at The Ok Coral

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/07/2018 22:38

3:00 p.m. Wednesday, October 26, 1881, Tombstone, Arizona.

After months of death threats from the Cowboy Billys, their long simmering feud with the law thing came to a head. The Earp Brothers and Doc Holliday faced the criminals down in a shootout.

Tomorrow's 'sleepover' is starting to feel like the Gunfight at the OK Coral.

The outcome of the real story was three of the outlaws were killed. Another two claimed they were unarmed and ran from the fight. Virgil, Morgan, and Doc Holliday were wounded, but Wyatt Earp was unharmed.

How many Brexiteers can we expect to roll over and resign from the Cabinet and how many will surrender to May and the Pro-Business lobby? ONly time will tell.

Please place your bets for the number of resignations and the number of 'I support the PM' comments.

But don't get too excited. The showdown wasn't the end of the matter.

One of the outlaws who legged it, filed murder charges against the Earps and Doc Holliday. It took them some time for them to be acquitted.

Then Virgil Earp was ambushed and disabled in the arm later that year in December and Morgan Earp was assassinated in March 1882. Wyatt Earp, then thinking he had no other option, went on a personal vendetta to kill the outlaws and then fled the state.

Given the Tory Cabinet and the perchant for stabbing each other in the back and settling personal scores, a repeat of a wild west gun fight, really doesn't sound too wildly off the cards now does it?

Buckle up. Its time to play at Chequers.

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BigChocFrenzy · 09/07/2018 19:21

DD started off by saying how simple Brexit would be
and ended up admitting it was more complicated than the moon landing

That really is why Brexit is in such dire straits:
Leavers keep thinking it's simple, because the leaders they trusted told them so
keep thinking that international trade & services & transport & certifications etc haven't changed in 45 years

Leave promised different things, conflicting things, to different groups
but above all that it would be a simple win-win, no downside, no recession,
which is fine to win a vote
but makes it impossible for a govt to deliver what everyone wanted from Leave

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 09/07/2018 19:21

Always my favourite tweet, doing the rounds again today:
@David_Cameron
Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband:
7:26 AM - 4 May 2015

mozzybites · 09/07/2018 19:22

bigChoc I fear this is something that Corbyn might actually be right on, law of averages and every thing.
I was at a dinner party, actually we had dc with us so I fear it was more of a kitchen supper, in Mexico this week where they are waiting to see what the election of their own socialist president will bring. The reasons behind his election seem very similar in some ways with the drivers for Brexit. At least much of the popular vote for Brexit.

RedToothBrush · 09/07/2018 19:22

Oliver Norgrove @OliverNorgrove
From where are people getting the idea that we're closer to a soft Brexit after today? I'd say precisely the opposite. We moved closer to both a no deal and/or no Brexit at all.

I honestly don't know which direction this pushes us towards. I am dubious of anyone making a prediction at all right now. It could go any direction.

Today could be good or bad.

Personally I think it inevitable that Davis would go at some point due to there being two Brexit departments. And if you go on from that, believing that Johnson would have to go if Davis quit on principle then his resignation was also inevitable.

And since they were inevitable, its kind of like the necessary pain you have to go through if you have a splinter. If you don't get rid of it, it can give you an infection. The worry is whether they have been embedded so long, that you'd got the infection anyway and purging yourself of them isn't going to solve the problem.

I don't know. I think we have to wait for the dust to settle before drawing any kind of conclusion whatsoever.

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Heyduggeesflipflop · 09/07/2018 19:23

Shack up

If you mean did I see the most monumental of stitch ups coming (aka putting Brexit firmly in the ‘too difficult’ box) then no, but with the benefit of hindsight we should have seen it coming.

Ps - this comment may be delayed as Janet is premoderating all of my comments in her stead as ‘sensible thread Brexit person/ woman’

54321go · 09/07/2018 19:26

@ Heydugg I'll tell you if you can explain how any one of Mrs Mays 12 'pledges' can be achieved.

ShackUp · 09/07/2018 19:26

heyduggee but Brexit was always going to be too difficult, wasn't it? It can't be done (apart from crashing out).

frumpety · 09/07/2018 19:28

Oh Hey I think you get a rough ride on these threads , you are always welcome round mine , you have missed the main , but its Eaton Mess for afters if you are interested Grin

Icantreachthepretzels · 09/07/2018 19:30

Harsh words from BoJo

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44770847

but the question is... what exactly has he done to make this 'brexit dream' a reality? Or is he finally admitting it - brexit was never anything but a dream nightmare. And now we are waking up.

54321go · 09/07/2018 19:30

On the contrary, Heydugg knows everything. If only he/she would pop round to No 10 and tell Mrs May we can have it all settled before she brings out the cocoa.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/07/2018 19:30

Leaver Richard North and other longterm Leavers on his board are furious and in despair
at the chaotic mess and likely economic disaster this govt has made of Leave

They now seem to want the Tory - and Labour - parties destroyed, in retribution for this betrayal.

They are mostly right wing nationalist, a few leftwing,
but highly knowledgeable about the EU and how the UK could have left fairly painlessly,
via a 10-year process like Flexcit or starting point Norway+

The Tory party chose the quick grab, instant gratification, because of party politics and total ignorance about the EU & international trade
Leavers are entitled to be furious at these arrogant, incompetent idiots

Heyduggeesflipflop · 09/07/2018 19:31

Shack up - I make this point in all seriousness but that is where you and I disagree - Brexit has been made too difficult which it different to it being impossible as a starting premise

54321 - would love to debate your legalese bits but you would bore me I think. No offense

Heyduggeesflipflop · 09/07/2018 19:32

Frumpety - love Eaton mess: thanks for the offer

OlennasWimple · 09/07/2018 19:33

I think we have to wait for the dust to settle before drawing any kind of conclusion whatsoever

I agree. There are loads of pieces appearing on line trying to say what it all means, but they all seem to drift towards "we don't know"

MyNameDefinatelyIsntJanet · 09/07/2018 19:33

I can’t speak for brexiteers because I voted remain originally on the balance of uncertainty, but once the vote was cast I decided I wanted to think positively and kind of became a Brexit supporter by virtue of the fact I had faith that 52% of the voting public clearly knew something I didn’t.

I was feeling good about our prospects until today, when May presented a plan that the EU have basically already rejected. When it’s rejected again she has no choice but to fall on her sword.

In answer to your question, no. I don’t think this is what any brexiteers wanted.

frumpety · 09/07/2018 19:35

Hey you remind me of someone, do you seek solace in books when things get a bit too much ?

Reminder: you won, enjoy the victory.

MrHoolieswaistcoat · 09/07/2018 19:35

frumpety I am actually having Eaton mess for pudding. Couldn’t be more appropriate in the circumstances Wink
duggee You’re just coming across like an annoying (and ignorant) teenager who follows their parents round the house determined to have an argument with them.

MrHoolieswaistcoat · 09/07/2018 19:37

Nobody is listening to you.

Heyduggeesflipflop · 09/07/2018 19:38

Frumpety

Alas it has been a phyrric victory it would seem...

Mr hoolies

Thanks for reading

BigChocFrenzy · 09/07/2018 19:39

That is the fatal fallacy: Brexit was never a simple task

  • but it was a possible one, if done intelligently and iver several,years.

Brexit is horrendously complicated, because international trade, agencies, certifications, licences etc are horrendously complicated and intertwined
These are topics that people study for years before being able to work in these fields.

Those Leavers like Richard North who campaigned for 30 years - and he used that time to research how to Brexit -
are now ignored, or demonised as "Remainers"

This is all part of the general dumbing down of society:
that everything must be simple
experts are not allowed
and emotion & wishes must trump facts

TheElementsSong · 09/07/2018 19:40

The obvious thing to do now is to invoke the “If it’s Brexit news it must be good news // If it’s bad new it mustn’t be Brexit news” narrative.

RedToothBrush · 09/07/2018 19:42

Another resignation

Chris Green @CGreenUK
I have handed in my resignation to the Prime Minister as PPS. Brexit must mean Brexit

Minister in Transport, no one has ever heard of before.

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woman11017 · 09/07/2018 19:45

@iainjwatson
I am told 1922 committee chairman Graham Brady made it clear that the 48 signatures that would start a leadership contest hadn’t been received

Grease Smaug looked a bit weepy on Channel 4 news.

RedToothBrush · 09/07/2018 19:46

The Columnist @Sime0nStylites
1. The Brexit political crisis that many have predicted since the first mention of the ‘three red lines’ has finally arrived.
2. There has never been any chance that the dual promise of taking back control and a Brexit that would be straightforward and prosperous could ever be achieved.
3. The last two years have been a largely fruitless and wearying pursuit of a parallel SM structure (access without the obligations) that is an existential challenge to the EU.
4. This has nothing to do with how people voted or why they voted. Leave voters were promised a Brexit that is unachievable.
5. The only surprise is that the crisis didn’t happen earlier - eg at the sufficient progress checkpoint when the U.K. accepted the Irish back-stop.
6. The structural flaws are currently irreparable - a c 50/50 divide in the country and no majority in the HoC for any of the Brexit deals (potentially) on offer.
7. We are marooned at the Langragian point between the two available deals (Canada and Norway) without any power to make a choice.
8. And it will get worse before it gets better. The political crisis is just beginning - eventually there will be another election.
9. The economic crisis hasn’t happened yet. But it will. Unless there’s a decisive change of course. /ends

David Henig @DavidHenigUK
Where do today's events leave Brexit? To borrow from this thread it's the start of a UK political crisis, one that is almost certainly going to get worse before it gets better. A Suez crisis for our generation, how do we get out of this situation? 1/
Start from the obvious, and recognise that there is no simple solution. Remainers say there is, EEAers say there is, ERGers say there is, etc, but these solutions would leave huge numbers dissatisfied. I like what @Simonhartmp has to say here 2/
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-resigns_uk_5b438b25e4b0c523e2615ece
Boris Johnson And David Davis Leave The Brexit Project Hanging By A Thread
If today makes my colleagues look devious, self-indulgent, and incompetent - it's because they are
(Simon Hart is the Conservative MP for Carmarthen West)

At some point we need leadership - maybe from a group of MPs - to be honest with the UK public about the choices we face. Broadly as I endlessly retweet below. It might not be the case forever, but that is the choice for 9 months time 3/

Retweets this tweet by himself

Your periodic reminder that the UK Brexit choice is a border, on the island of Ireland, or the Irish Sea, or an exceptionally close relationship with the EU.

The UK Government currently rules out all of these options.

David Henig @DavidHenigUK
All the evidence suggests that both the PM and Leader of the Opposition are too tribal to put together the kind of cross-party coalition we need at this point. So I'm not sure where the leadership comes from. But it must come from somewhere 4/

Once we have that leadership another choice will emerge, which may in fact win the day, which is to extend different deadlines. That will also not be popular with many, but it might be the least unpopular option 5/

Somehow we are going to have to have some kind of open debate about where we want to go as a country. Such debates are to put it mildly counter to usual UK political culture. But I doubt we can reach an even halfway satisfactory outcome without this 6/

Even more uncomfortably we'll have to recognise some failings - not least the hit we have taken to our reputation for pragmatism in other countries and with global businesses. And those laughing at us because they thought we were globally arrogant e.g. our harsh visa regime 7/

He's still tweeting this thread but really slowly, so I'll cut it there for now. The point is that:

If you want Brexit YOU HAVE to extend the deadline. It is impossible to achieve successfully, without doing that. I can not see a viable alternative at this stage in proceedings.

If you don't want Brexit, you still have to get rid of the poison in this and persuade more moderate leavers that its an exceptional bad idea.

We have not crossed either bridge. We must cross one eventually to move forward as a country.

And in that context there are no surprises about this tweet either:

Nigel Farage @Nigel_Farage
Unless Brexit is back on track by March 2019, I will seriously consider putting my name forward to return as @UKIP leader. The will of 17.4m voters must be carried out.

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SusanWalker · 09/07/2018 19:46

Just found this on Twitter - in response to what boris said in his resignation letter.

Westministenders: High Drama at The Ok Coral