Westminstenders: Rebel or Reveal

[RedToothBrush]

The EU Withdrawal Bill made it through the Commons. Though May did not manage it unscathed.

In an attempt to divide and conquer the Rebels, May might have damaged trust. We shall find out. The Grieve Amendment faces the Lords. We also will see if the Lords will back down on their amendments or apply some new ones for the Commons to deal with in Parliamentary Ping Pong.

Aaron Banks has been exposed as being pally with the Russian Embassy in a plot twist that absolutely everyone saw coming.

Meanwhile the EU thinks we have already run out of time and is preparing options to extend talks beyond the a50 deadline. These include having MEPs for the 2019 - 2024 session.

There is also growing talk around Europe that freedom of movement in its current form is unsustainable. Ironically we might see the EU adopt something akin to Cameron's pre-referendum proposals as the EU reforms.

Theresa May has also announced - at a moment when she is looking particularly weak - a new tax for the NHS, cunningly disguised in spin as 'the Brexit dividend'. Of course shareholders don't always get dividends and at times of poor economic performance instead might be asked to stump up extra capital...Expect to see buses with £350 million of the side just in time for the next general election cycle.

And so the Zombie PM limbers on towards the end of the summer session and the relative safety of the summer holidays. More drama, cringing and disbelief guaranteed before we get there.

If you don't want refugees, if you don't want terrorism, then stop invading other countries for their oil, or because of Russia's military base, or just to be America's poodle.

ISIS didn't exist before the vacuum created by removing Saddam Hussein and his entire security apparatus.
He was an evil shit, but he was their evil shit and he didn't allow any other evil shits to become dangerous.
Removing his regime was the catalyst for this quagmire of problems.

Many Leavers often come here and tell us the vote wasn't about immigration
but then we find keep finding Leavers for whom it clearly was all about immigration
particularly brown people fleeing from countries that the USA, UK, Russia have turned into war-torn hellholes

Although at least one Leave poster seems contemptuous of food banks
At least rejoice like Moggy in that some people are helping others, instead of calling them virtue signallers

The Uk used to have a Welfare State in which people didn't have to wait weeks for benefits, didn't have benefits stopped for months while any anonymous allegation was investigated
So we didn't need food banks

Now we do, or people would starve
Hungry people get desperate and would turn to anyone who promised them food
Food banks probably save us from civil disorder
They certainly save the govt from the embarrassment of more people dying from lack of food, instead of just the occasional example.

I love the posts saying that Brexit is the EU's fault
They made you do it

No, Leavers own whatever happens with Brexit
not the Remainers, not the EU, not Trump, not even Putin

You voted Leave: take responsibility
You won !

Thanks for the new thread .

Of course there are versions, Heydugg. There is no such thing as the complete sovereignty that was sold as a possibility to the British public.

Eventually there will have to be a trade relationship with the EU. This will entail convergence of standards in many industries, in aviation, agriculture and much more. There will also be trade relationships with the US, and with the WTO. These will also involve compromises to 'sovereignty'. In the case of any trade relationship with the US, there will be lots of compromises on the part of the UK, not so much by the US.

The public won't get much of a say in all of the negotiations involved in setting up these future relationships, of course. It won't be like the European Parliament or the other EU bodies in which the UK electorate had a chance to influence developments.

But hey, who needs patient, plodding, orderly processes that may require horse trading and compromise when you can do something dramatic like voting 'Leave' (clearly operating under the delusion that no more horse trading or compromise will ever be necessary again )

Repeating a 'Thank you' to MrsReynolds for her work.
You could look at her and see it as valuable training as in the future MORE food banks are likely to be necessary. Maybe she would start a thread about setting up a foodbank to help others?
I have a feeling that the UK and others 'assisted' Saddam into position in the first place, but like other dictators got a bit too carried away and didn't stop.

BigChocFrenzy

If you don't want refugees, if you don't want terrorism, then close the borders

Fixed that for you

Has Heydugg gone to:
A:, think of some good reasons to leave, as I suggested earlier, or.
B: get a gun so (s)he can stand on the white cliffs of Dover and shoot immigrants?

It was a binary choice : in or out

The whole problem with the referendum is that it was not a clear binary choice. It was not "in" or "out" because there was nothing written down setting out what "out" meant. For example, in the Irish abortion referendum, the Irish government had set out that if there was a vote to repeal the eigth amendment, the result would be “Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy” and had also published draft legislation so people could see what that entailed.

The problem with the EU referendum, is that the British public could only vote on what was within the capabilities of the British government to determine, not on what it hoped to be able to negotiate with the other members.

The options within UK government control would have been: leave the EU and apply to remain as members of the EEA/and customs union or leave all institutions of the EU. They didn't do this, so there is no way of telling what anybody who voted leave actually wanted. Anybody who claims that all leave voters knowingly voted to leave the EEA and Customs Union is lying. Many voters had no idea what either of them were, or the effects of leaving them, let alone other institutions and agreements such as Euratom, Gallileo etc.

If the UK government had thoroughly researched the options beforehand and laid out draft legislation to say which institutions the UK would have no right to remain a part of, with clear information to all voters (I believe in Irish referenda, objective information booklets produced by an independent third party have to be distributed to each household), then they would have had a mandate for the type of Brexit path they are trying to follow. The fact that this didn't happen means that there is no mandate for a "hard" Brexit, leaving all EU institutions. The referendum was a mess from start to finish and anyone shouting "the will of the people" clearly has no idea what democracy means.

Saddam indeed used to be "our ally" against Iran

Syria used to be where the US military & CIA sent terrorist suspects who needed more severe torture than could be risked in US jurisdiction

I have just emailed my Cornish mp to ask him a) to press for some of the extra NHS money to be ringfenced for mental health services and b) whether the announcement that the 'brexit dividend ' will be spent on the NHS means that Westminster won't be replacing Cornwall 's EU funding.

He's a Tory brexiteer so we shall see.

What about making lemon curd with the egg yolks? Or if your low carbing omelettes made with extra yolks?

54321

Yes more food banks let’s do it!

After all if something is free there will always be demand!

Terrorism in the UK mainland in the 1970's was mainly from N Ireland where the issues were far worse.
There was racism and unhappiness about some immigration but not terrorism as far as I remember.

54321 and the 1980s as I sadly have experience of.

common The UK has home-grown terrorists, both Islamic and of the far right, British citizens born in the UK

Also, national borders are very difficult to close against really determined professionals trying to get in, or out.
As the IRA used to say: "we only have to get lucky once. You have to be lucky every time"

The former East Germany with its watchtowers, minefields and shoot to kill couldn't even stop ordinary refugees sneaking out.

Looks like the EU will tighten borders against migrants and refugees though
So if Brexit goes really wrong, all those British refugees will be turned away from Calais

I've noticed 2 clear types of Leavers over the last 2 years:

desperate people struggling to make ends meet and those who want to help them - Lexiters
vs
those who want to kick them in the teeth - Tory rightwing

This is why the Tories are tearing themselves apart trying to find a Brexit that will please totally Leavers with totally different & conflicting views

The aftermath of Brexit could bring about probably the only circumstances in which Corbyn or a similar hard-left successor could be elected on a radical socialist manifesto.
Or just come into power and go radical.

I admit, I would laugh at that result brought about by a Tory govt
Is that what is causing the current panic among Tory Leavers ?
Lexiters seems pretty buoyant.

Even under the hardest of hard Brexits, Britain will be a country people are desperate to enter, rather than escape. When we start fleeing to Calais, you'll know it's the end of everything.

Loss of housing, food, jobs and hope breeds terrorists, or at least gives them greater 'justification' for their actions.
Personally I hope that all those on both sides of the border in Ireland manage to die peacefully in their sleep at the end of their natural life. To some this may be 'unjust' but all sides were 'wrong' during those times so with luck peace will remain in place until that generation have passed on and that their children can move forward. The GFA is fragile and those closest know that, so any attempt to disturb this must be prevented.

Grrr this dividend language is as bad as 'strong and stable'. How dare they spend taxpayers money spinning that .It's deceitful propaganda.

1. A Dividend is a sum of money paid regularly (typically annually) by a company to its shareholders out of its profits (or reserves).

1. Our EU payments for membership were slightly less or slightly more than 1% of GDP depending on how you calculate it.

How dare they imply that this whole coup, farce is going to result in a dividend implying a sum from bountiful profits. How dare they.The gov'ts very own forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility says the farce will harm public finances.

I'd have so much more respect if the gov't message was, ok our sums show this departure is going to cost you, but it's what you the people wanted.

After the ref the OBR estimated a net fiscal cost of £15bn a year (or nearly £300m a week) by 2020/21. Reduced EU trade and lower immigration will significantly decrease government revenue.

The director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies said: “There is no Brexit dividend. Payments to the EU will fall [after Brexit], but tax revenues will fall more as a result of Brexit.”

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2018/06/there-no-brexit-dividend-spend-nhs#amp

I think what amuses me most about the racist leaver voters is that we will need to recruit people (Drs, nurses, IT workers, scientists...) from the commonwealth now we are haemorraging our highly skilled EU workers.
And they will be BROWN
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That'll go down like a cup of cold sick !

BigChoc I agree. The immigration issue with Syria etc... is about what WE do about our foreign policy.
After all the uk was happy to tag along and invade Iraq, go to Afghanistan, support whatever side in Syria and generally meddled with different governments to get what they want.
Chomsky has a very good description of what is happening there.

And after creating mayhem, let people down in a middle of a war zone when we dint actually support the war to carry on), we wonder why people are ready to do anything, absolutely anything to come to our shores ....

I love how panicked the far right Leave activists are getting today. Did you see that Richard North's blog readership is the highest it's ever been, now that he's basically eviscerating the big Leave plans with reams of hard data on a daily basis ? I'll bet that's really got them going.

(We've been having a great Father's Day in our house. Says a lot that our visitors have had a lot of time on their hands today, doesn't it?)

I’m afraid that politics in the uk has long been all about propaganda.

Remember the conservatives promising that ensure that they will go after benefits cheaters only for people to realise what they meant was ‘we will reduce benefits and make it hard for EVERYONE’?

Nothing different there. Just telling people what they want to hear to get votes and keep the population quiet. And keep the small print very small so that people don’t wake up.
The apathy within the population is scary though. People seem to forget as quickly as they are told what governemnet S have been promising (eg that thanks to budget cuts, the economy would be better and that people lives would be better - haven’t seen that happening in 10 years if Conservative governemnet)

The government would like to apologise to those who took the recent English test but the papers were actually 'Home economics' so your results may be disappointingly low.

I once caught a saying on a US TV show*, which tickled me pink - no idea if it makes any sense outside NYC (any US MNetters ?). The only real bit of backknowledge you need is that NYC subway tickets used to be $1.

That, and a dollar gets you a subway ticket

So, apply that to the Brexit bonus ...

The Brexit bonus, and £350million a week gets you a better NHS

(* early "Law and Order" - it was said by Adam Schiff)

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