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Brexit

Westminstenders: Throwing Boomerangs

960 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2018 18:42

British politics and media in a nutshell.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang_effect_(psychology)#Political_beliefs

No EU progress, no discussion. Just this. Keep everyone in line by bouncing boomerangs.

Disaster capitalism looms, they just have to get us to the edge of the cliff before the centre reforms. That's it.

If the legal roads to stop Brexit are closed as David Allen Green says, then how do you force the political flood gates to open, especially with both the far left and the far right using micro-aggression against the public to keep the centre ground weak?

Answers on a ballot paper on 3rd May.

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 07/04/2018 16:26

The irony is, all the immigrants we need will be able to leave the UK, bluntly, leaving behind those that can't.

If anyone has Netflix and likes a laugh, then this is well worth a spin (James Acasters 4 part special).

I did like his routine about the day of the referendum, and being asked in the morning if he wants a cup of tea, and whether the bag should be left in or not ...

"I was like ... not today, of all days. Making a decision. It's so hard. One the one hand you can leave the teabag in the cup. That way you get a really strong cup of tea - even though the teabag will lose some of it's strength. But the weaker teabag is in a strong cup of tea ....

Of course there's the other way ... you could take the teabag out of the cup. But then you get a weaker cup of tea .... but also the teabag has more strength. So you have a weaker cup of tea and you know what happens to the teabag ?

Straight in the bin."

DrivenToDespair · 07/04/2018 17:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EmilyAlice · 07/04/2018 18:17

I would find that hard to believe Driven. As a nearly seventy year old those would seem to be the attitudes of long, long ago (if they were ever widespread). So many of my generation worked across Europe and beyond and continue to travel (and live abroad in our case) in retirement. I know many on Mumsnet thinks that everyone over 60 is stuck in a timewarp and still has the perceived attitudes and values of the 1950s, but I really don’t think they are right.
Even if small pockets of those attitudes exist amongst the seriously fuckwitted I would be surprised if they were a reason to vote for Brexit. I doubt that people of any age thought that deeply about it. They swallowed the crap in the press and on television and thought it might be nice to have a change. I think it was a sort of Strictly vote.

DGRossetti · 07/04/2018 18:28

Then I'm reminded that there's nothing a British person finds more contemptible than another British person putting on airs.

It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him.

George Bernard Shaw (well known English* author ...)

EmilyAlice · 07/04/2018 18:35

Do you think people think that about their children and grandchildren though DG? Most people I know bore everyone to death over the achievements of their offspring (I am sure I do).

mrsreynolds · 07/04/2018 18:37

strictly vote

You're not wrong 😔😡😣

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 07/04/2018 18:43

emily sadly I know many cases where the adult children are not deemed worthy by the parents largely because the adult children have not followed the path they wanted them to, and any achievements of the grandchildren are in spite of the supposedly feckless adult children. I appreciate that's not true of the entire generation nor is probably the main attitude of that generation - my ILs are a good counter to it - but it is an attitude that isn't that uncommon.

EmilyAlice · 07/04/2018 18:54

Goodness Dobby how sad. I don’t think I know anyone like that.
I think really that the whole “generational “ thing is flawed. The human condition isn’t really like that is it?
Even if my generation did sing along to “I hope I die before I get old”. 😀

TheElementsSong · 07/04/2018 20:21

Thanks for the new thread RTB!

I wonder how many older Britons voted Leave because they viewed their grandchildren - with their ideas of travelling the world, learning other languages, eating exotic foods, and all that - as putting on airs. If so, no wonder they're convinced they've saved them from a fate worse than death. They've taught them their place.

Driven I have encountered this attitude amongst people I know well; however I don't know what proportion of people think like this, and also to what extent we could attribute this to the older demographic (as opposed to the "intentionally insular" demographic?).

lalalonglegs · 07/04/2018 21:44

The Observer is reporting that a new Centrist party is in the offing - although it seems quite light on detail. Will the UK/England have its own En Marche (and who will be our Macron?)?

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2018 22:36

Back in the1970s, when I was planning to go to Uni, I was repeatedly told "not to get ideas above my station"

Some people who don't want certain experiences get very angry indeed at other people who do

Peregrina · 07/04/2018 22:41

I was repeatedly told "not to get ideas above my station"

A similar experience for me too. Have some ambition but make sure that they are modest ones - so aiming for teaching, nursing, or librarianship OK, aiming for Oxbridge and say Medicine, or Fast Stream of the Civil Service - overly ambitious. With maybe one or two people who were notable exceptions.

Peregrina · 07/04/2018 22:43

Any new Centrist party has got to get both left and right on board - otherwise it's the SDP all over again.

IrenetheQuaint · 07/04/2018 22:45

Read a copy of the Spectator today at an elderly relative's house. It's mostly batshit but I was particularly amused by an article by the unsuitably named Will Heaven complaining about Londoners' increasing tendency to vote Labour and baffling inability to understand the advantages of Brexit.

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2018 23:04

Agree peregina. I'm going to quote the much loved pete north on this for a reason.

Pete North @ petenorth33
1. So what will this new party be? It's all far too predictable. The ultra remainers will jump aboard, along with a few z list political failures and shitbird politicos who think their brand of lefty bollocks is centrism.
2. Polly T and Teh Grauniad will praise it from a distance but never endorse it. It might attract a couple of lame duck MP detectors and the remain-o-mongs will describe it as "a blow against the establishment". We will all laugh because it WILL be hilarious.
3. They will spend a shit load of money on full page ads in newspapers nobody reads and will have a bus of their own because, you know, we plebs just can't resist a political bus. We will laugh some more. It will then split the vote nine different ways IF they can even mobilise.
4. Candidates will be buck toothed Lib Dem types and #FBPE crusaders who have no idea how to relate to working class northerners. They'll waste a boatload of money on things they think won the referendum but actually have zero effect.
5. The basic problem is it will be modelled on Ed Miliband's Labour - wailing about austerity and how that was really what caused Brexit. Basically a party of yesteryear's nonentities who want to wind the clock back to 2010 as though new Labour never left office.
6. The message will be completely tone deaf but utterly convinced they are in tune with the masses - but will have no movement behind them, no real plan and though they will get boat hours of BBC time, nobody real will take a second look at them.
7. At that point the investors will realise theyve recruited a bunch of drongos and will slow funding while they all fight like rats in a sack, one of them is done for embezzlement and somebody senior outed as an antisemite/paedophile - and none of us will be remotely surprised.
8. That's if the party even makes it off the drawing board - which it probably won't because we're still leaving the EU and there's a major reckoning on the horizon. NOBODY wants a bunch of virtue signalling Waitrose liberals and patronising europhiles in charge of anything.

The fundamental problem is right here.

If its a 'liberal' party that virtue signals and can't cope with language like Norths it won't work. For it to work, it'll have to be a party that believes in the consensus building party of liberal democracy. And thats going to require a certain amount of 'nose holding' and a willingness to compromise. Whether that is even possible up against competition from the LDs and Labour I do wonder. To have any chance of working, it would have to have a leader from the north because its a matter of trust and appearances.

As desperate as I am for a new centre, I am hold similar concerns (though I certainly wouldn't phrase like North). Could you be in a party with people like North, is the big question. If you don't think you could then it highlights the intrinsic problem over how society really has divided. The fundamental issue is being able to see past where someone is a dickhead and be able to admit where they have a point despite how they presented it.

(Fundamental issue with the whole 'all leavers are racist' thing, when you can't see the validity of other arguments even if you disagree with them and think they are fundamentally flawed.)

Are we in a place where consensus building between middle class remainers, liberal leavers and left of centre working class northerners (who are both remain and leavers) is remotely possible? Cos I think thats what it would have to be.

I think the appalling manner North makes the point, highlights the underlying problem even more.

Im not feeling it, from this article. Hope im wrong.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2018 23:22

red Any center grouping needs to be broad, but they can't accept just any random allies lurking in the closet

  • or any random ource of funding;
we've seen what can happen when umbrella organisations are careless and any group seriously campaigning against hard Brexit will be up against ruthless opponents who will seek out any fault they can magnify

Richard North is exceptionally well-informed
BUT
both Norths are rightwing nationalists
and Peter North makes openly racist remarks, e.g. referring to African / ME immigrants as "detritus"
and disablist - "mongs"

The Norths wouldn't fit into any "centre party" and P North would be a horrendous embarrassment even in a loose umbrella alliance

  • even if he stopped making racist & disablist remarks, we've seen how past social media posts ere always dredged up.
BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2018 23:27

Austerity played a big role in getting those hit by it to vote in desperation for a change
also to vote against Cameron & Osbourne who brought in austerity and planned more of the same.

Winding back the clock in that respect is indeed necessary
and is not whingeing
but P North doesn't want to reverse cuts that affect the poor because he is hard right

It is a great pity that Cameron became PM and Milliband didn't

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2018 23:36

Another fire at trump tower.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2018 00:25

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/07/universal-credit-backlash-millions-lose-out

Ministers will face a backlash against reform to the benefits system when millions of claimants moving on to universal credit realise their income will be cut,
the government’s most senior welfare adviser has warned.

< with all the reports of hardship on UC, would many potential claimants still be unaware of this though ? >

missmoon · 08/04/2018 06:56

The new party hasn’t announced any names, members, policies, or anything really except to say they have some funding and will try to fill the centre ground. And yet they gave been attacked in the strongest possible terms by all sides. See for instance Owen Jones’s tweet last night (“another party funded by and representing the super rich”), which is in itself very interesting. Both Labour and the Tories are scared of a centrist alternative to the LDs. They have successfully positioned their parties at the extremes while assuming that their centrist voters will stick with them for fear of the alternative.

mathanxiety · 08/04/2018 07:35

In the Eighties, a racially-minded historian defined New York as "a heavy infusion of middle European and Jewish culture grafted on the old Dutch root". One might add Puerto Rico, Italy, Haiti, the southeastern Chinese province of Fujian and the Mexican state of Puebla to that list.

A good article by Hari Kunzru (Esquire link) - but New York is actually an Irish city.

mathanxiety · 08/04/2018 07:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 08/04/2018 07:45

I think the appalling manner North makes the point, highlights the underlying problem even more.

Yes, and it's a problem made worse by his language. Othering and mocking destroy the centre.

Best to make do with the parties already there, and to fight within them for the centre, for sanity and for compromise.

Peregrina · 08/04/2018 08:06

We have to ask ourselves how did Farage and UKIP manage to cause such a tsunami that both the Tories and to a lesser extent Labour were scared witless by him; enough to get the Referendum and get the country into the mess it's in now? This despite not being able to get elected to Parliament himself and the only MPs were a couple crossing the floor. Whatever it was, this is what a new party would have to do.

Personally, I prefer the wartime solution of a genuine coalition - which would take the best any brains from all the parties.

Peregrina · 08/04/2018 08:07

BTW I think the last could happen almost by accident, in that no one party gets a sufficient majority in a GE and has to start stitching up deals with two or three others.

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