Westminstenders: From Russia with Love

[RedToothBrush]

Things just got scary.

The colony of US puppet state or a vassel state of the EU?

Why not just let market forces take their course and let Russia buy the UK?

How did we get to stories of spies and mafia who buy politicians?

Just who are our enemies and allies?

Won't someone think of the effect on house prices in Salisbury?

Try not to don your foil hat, brace yourself and resist shouting 'money laundering too loud'.

More turbulence ahead.

Brexit still seems like such a cracking idea doesn't it?

BigChoc - so when it becomes known in Moscow that Corbyn was not briefed because information might have been passed on by British agents near Putin or because GCHQ is tapping communications, what will Putin do next?

Russia has a history of preferring spectacular murders; the Uk doesn't
So Russia is 'the usual suspects'?
And it isn't murder yet. Just a very distracting attack.

Your analysis of motive is very unsatisfactory.

I agree that May is shamelessly milking the attempted murders
rather than believing that she is responsible for them

I agree that May is shamelessly milking the attempted murders rather than believing that she is responsible for them

But once again: either (or the confusion between either) suits Russia.

Any coverage of Cambridge Analytica in the news this morning?

What I am suggesting when I say 'if Corbyn is a traitor, try him' is that it is really dishonest of Theresa May to imply or strongly suggest by not including him in the briefing that he is not trustworthy.

Not that he should be tried. Not that he could or would be tried.

Simply that Theresa May is making political capital out of this that is degrading politics and dragging political discourse into the gutter. It is a comment on Theresa May, not on Corbyn.

It is one thing to say we don't want the Uk govt to over-react
against a dangerously unstable & belligerent enemy like Russia

Quite another to totally distort the facts to justify this.

I have no problem saying the Uk should not take any action that risks starting a war with a militarily more powerful country, that has 1000s of nukes too.

I just refuse to twist facts
to justify why I want a response that bluntly is much softer than I would if a much weaker country had been murdering people in the Uk

euvsdisinfo.eu/skripal-and-the-disinformation-swamp/

Bit more than a distracting attack

Andrew Neil
@afneil
Sunday Times reports that Sergei and Julia Skripal are said to be “close to death”.

The situation wrt working with children or vulnerable adults is not comparable.

We do allow the presumption of suitability in political leaders. We overlook all sorts of indiscretions and all sorts of character failings and bad behaviour. Getting away with groping and sexual harassment is going to be more difficult in future.

We don't overlook Catholicism, otoh.

What I am suggesting when I say 'if Corbyn is a traitor, try him' is that it is really dishonest of Theresa May to imply or strongly suggest by not including him in the briefing that he is not trustworthy.

Yes, but generally the MSM have made sure that the Great British Public is well used to extraordinary evidence to tar people. Shit sticks. If you knew what we knew (taps nose knowingly).

It's nothing new. Pre-1967, confirmed bachelor was an "elliptical phrase"

With reference to the current debate, see how much movement you can get from entire swathes of the population with fuck all facts. And then reflect on the fact that 1/4 people consider the Apollo landings a hoax ......

Also, I must admit that I am very disturbed by the escalation of risk to the wider public in these spectacular methods Russia is now using

Not morally great, but my concern would be much less if the chosen method of murder wasn't so blatant in not caring about collateral damage, i.e. any civilians near the intended victims, the emergency services

Hence why I think May must respond
because doing nothing is also risky - the attacks will just continue and escalate, with likely more civilian casualties.

We wouldn't let Islamic terrorist continue to murder without trying to stop them
So we should not let state terrorists murder with impunity either

Why so much excusing of assassins from a white fascist state, in comparison to the condemnation of Islamic ones ?
We don't wait for trials & convictions there, either, before saying it was an Islamic group

pain Like with trump, one has to watch what news is being sidelined.

CA story is huge, and lots of people are claiming to be closing their FB accounts.

How is Russia 'dangerously unstable'?
What evidence is there apart from the TV show '24' that Russia is 'belligerent'? The issues in Ukraine?

Imo, the US is a far better fit for those two descriptors right now.

We have only a few 'facts' to work on here.
Most of what we think we know comes from a government that we also accuse of wishing to impoverish the average Briton, of willingness to throw overboard an international treaty, and of railroading a Repeal Act through Parliament that will effect a libertarian revolution in the UK.

The difficulty of trying anyone for these attempted murders is that they are of course long gone and even when found, Putin won't extradite them

As a substitute, to have some judicial review, we had the Litvinenko Inquiry by Sir Robert Owen which examined all the evidence

His report page 246:

“310.16 The FSB operation to kill Mr Litvinenko was probably approved by Mr Patrushev and also by President Putin.”

Indeed, DGRosetti, that huge problem has already caused the Brexit imbroglio.

Because there aren't Islamic groups sowing confusion and alternative narratives so successfully in the same way, muddying the waters and casting on doubt on everything so that people become saturated with information and just don't believe anything any more, would be my guess as to why.

Why so much excusing of assassins from a white fascist state, in comparison to the condemnation of Islamic ones ?
We don't wait for trials & convictions there, either, before saying it was an Islamic group

Actually, the press and public opinion are equally quick to condemn both Russia and Islam in general for alleged attacks. We don't wait for trials and convictions before we accuse Russia, in case you hadn't noticed.

It's profiling at its finest.

I think a country that has fairly recently carried out genocide and still reveres the leader responsible is very belligerent and unstable

So is a country which has murders by the state of journalists and dissidents inside Russia

math You have always defended Putin and Russia against any criticism, whatever the situation
Is there nothing you would ever criticise him over ?

I don't support any politician without criticising them when they do wrong
and being a fascist mass-murderer is about as wrong as you can get

I'm referring to those on the hard right who always defend Putin

They are the ones who are generally most rabidly anti-Muslim
They condemn Islamic terrorism, but not Russian terrorism

Someone is fair imo if they either excuse both or condemn both without twisting facts for either view.

Because there aren't Islamic groups sowing confusion and alternative narratives so successfully in the same way, muddying the waters and casting on doubt on everything so that people become saturated with information and just don't believe anything any more, would be my guess as to why

A government of charlatans says something happened a certain way. People who have up to this point been very critical now fall in line and post hints about self serving narratives.

If this was the work of MI5 or MI6, they may well get away with it thanks to the abandonment of critical faculties.

And the people who call it into doubt are falling in line with the RT and Breitbart. Or are they reliable sources of information? This is dealing with a collection of unsavoury of characters - there are no heros here.

Russia is not unstable, BigChoc. Or belligerent. Russia does not need a dead ex spy for any purpose.

It's really, really important to stay critical of this Tory government and to resist dog whistle manipulation.

I have always been opposed to profiling. I have always been opposed to mindless acceptance of the party line. I am Irish and I know how profiling and mindless acceptance of the British party line can end up, both on a personal and on an international level.

Because there aren't Islamic groups sowing confusion and alternative narratives so successfully in the same way,

Islams non-hierarchical structure (c.f. Catholic church) doesn't easily lend itself to hero-worship so much. A strength, but a weakness ...

PainInTheEar Sun 18-Mar-18 11:30:52
And the people who call it into doubt are falling in line with the RT and Breitbart. Or are they reliable sources of information? This is dealing with a collection of unsavoury of characters - there are no heros here

When it comes to Russia, you are either with us or against us.
And there goes the centre.

Earlier in this thread there was a discussion of where voters might turn in the face of Corbyn's performance. Some posters have decided not to vote Labour, to spoil votes. There is speculation about whether a cohort of Labour voters will drift to support of the Tories.

The commie card has turned out to be very profitable for the Tories since Corbyn became leader.

The entire direction of Brexit was concocted by Fiona Hill, Nick Timothy and Theresa May, after all.

Now why didn't our Leaver friends ever speak out about the two unelected people who drove May's actions?

Simply that Theresa May is making political capital out of this that is degrading politics and dragging political discourse into the gutter. It is a comment on Theresa May, not on Corbyn.

But a year ago May was making anti Corbyn political capital, egged on by the right wing press screaming anti-Corbyn propaganda. Yet she didn't get the election result she wanted. I'd like to think that a significant number of the populace thought 'Hang on a minute, why is this man being so villified? We'll make our own judgement."
My worry is that May is so blinkered that she could blunder into some sort of war.

I believe it was you who started with the being with or against us refrains

It's really, really important to stay critical of this Tory government and to resist dog whistle manipulation.

I was just pointing out that everyone in this situation is problematic and that we shouldn't give Russia a free pass just because it is May who is pointing out there might be issues, as you seem to be suggesting. And if we are looking at who is for/against, then why isn't it relevant that RT/breitbart are pushing the same narratives that you are aligning with?