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Brexit

Westminstenders: From Russia with Love

996 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2018 21:11

Things just got scary.

The colony of US puppet state or a vassel state of the EU?

Why not just let market forces take their course and let Russia buy the UK?

How did we get to stories of spies and mafia who buy politicians?

Just who are our enemies and allies?

Won't someone think of the effect on house prices in Salisbury?

Try not to don your foil hat, brace yourself and resist shouting 'money laundering too loud'.

More turbulence ahead.

Brexit still seems like such a cracking idea doesn't it?

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BigChocFrenzy · 18/03/2018 11:52

I feel it is important not to ignore & excuse the blatant crimes of Russia and Putin
and genocide is as bad as it gets

Putin has a policy of murdering his enemies. That's so dangerous in a leader, a dictator
May does not have her political enemies and dissidents assassinated.

Although sections of the hard right - maybe copying their hero Putin's attitude ? - are taking the first steps with "Enemies of the People", trying to intimidate them by fear of far right terrorists

Criticising our own government does not mean I have to switch off reality about everything else
That is fanaticism

It is a fact that criticising Putin in Russia risks being murdered
The problems in the UK and in Russia are not remotely comparable

Of course I criticise May far more often, because I am a Uk citizen
However, I refuse to twist the facts when another country or leader does something far more wicked than she has ever attempted

The far right, US & Russian oligarchs, Putin and Brexit look to be all intertwined
The case is not 100%, also because the Uk govt refuses to open any investigations which might suggest its actions are being manipulated
However, it should not just be dismissed as impossible

That's my problem with the Putin fans
They won't here anything against him
They won't criticise even his proven actions

Peregrina · 18/03/2018 11:54

There is speculation about whether a cohort of Labour voters will drift to support of the Tories.

I really hope they don't stoop so low. My hope is that at the next election, no party is big enough to form a Government, and they have to stitch up a genuine cross - party coalition, like the War time one. I would hope then that the next casualty would be first past the post - the reason behind it, is that it's supposed to give us stability, but if it fails, why keep it.

Ah well, I can but live in hope.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/03/2018 11:56

All this wilful blindness of the hard left towards Russia and Putin just makes puts off many potential Labour voters,
because we think the country would be even less safe under such people than it is now.

Before all this, I was very unsure how I would vote in the next GE

However, if Corbyn is still leader, or someone similar, then this tips the scales for voting Tory - first time ever for me -
but it would be to keep him out of No.10

Seeing how he and some of his supporters always play down any actions by Russia make me believe he would be more damaging for the country than May, or even JRM or Boris

Seeing how helpless other Labour MPs are to do anything to stop him.
Like mostly Remainer Tory MPs are helpless to stop Brexit
Under our system, the PM is dominant

Add to that his support for self-ID
and his disgraceful playing down of anti-semitism in the Labour Party

My decision is entirely due to what Corbyn, Seamus Milne & co have said about these issues,
not because of the clumsy politicking by May

prettybird · 18/03/2018 11:56

Much as I usually agree with a lot of what you write Mathanxiety - I think you are at risk of misrepresenting what people are saying here - and diverting the point of the Westministenders threads (in which case you are the one who has helped May achieve her objective Confused)

People on this thread have said that they will not vote Labour because "Corbyn is a communist" but because he is as much use as a chocolate teapot not opposing Brexit and being disingenuous in claiming that a vote for Labour is a vote for Brexit. Therefore he is the one forcing people to look elsewhere for a party for which to vote - or to spoil their vote or to abstain. Nothing to do with whether he might or might not or might once have been a communist Confused

RedToothBrush · 18/03/2018 12:04

Conflation between being a potential security risk and being traitor is something of a straw man argument. One is a risk assessment of possibility of an incident where the intent may be malicious or innocent and the other is something where there is a crime that has already been committed with the intention of harming the country. Lets not confuse the two. (Noting here that the security services in the US, seem not to be telling their Commander in Chief the full story about everything for some reason).

And if we talk about prosecutions for having 'the wrong political beliefs' I'm mindful of who calls loudest for this at the moment. The idea of trying to prosecute someone high profile, even if there was evidence, is one I think is fantasy. Can you imagine Nigel Farage on trial? Much less Corbyn. In terms of political stability and national security, do you think trying someone in that situation, even if there was a lot of evidence would be a good move?

I think Cat also has a good point in saying that much of this argument is mute given the nature of the subject.

Corbyn, by habit, avoids making difficult decisions. The thoughtful considered approach? Or a way of avoiding making a really difficult decision where whatever you do, the outcome is going to be a bit shit.

On Russia, Milne has ALWAYS taken a line which is anti Western. It doesn't matter what the evidence. It will never be good enough, because its an ideological position in which evidence is irrelevant.

Corbyn and Milne both have a long standing distrust and poor relationship with the security service. They don't trust it. Even if they had been given evidence, do we really think it would make a difference? Given that history?

We don't view Stalin in such negative terms in the UK because of our history. Such feelings really are not shared by a lot of Eastern Europeans.

The UK's relationship with Stalin during WWII makes for some uncomfortable truths. We have the notion of Hitler as the enemy and we accordingly view the far right in that way. But Stalin, since he was an ally, didn't get the same treatment in British History and Cultural Knowledge.

For example are you familiar with the Katyn Massacre? And how the British kept quiet about it:

According to the Polish diplomat Edward Bernard Raczyński, Raczyński and General Sikorski met privately with Churchill and Alexander Cadogan on 15 April 1943, and told them that the Poles had concrete proof that the Soviets were responsible for the massacre. Raczyński reports that Churchill, "without committing himself, showed by his manner that he had no doubt of it". Churchill said that "The Bolsheviks can be very cruel". However, at the same time, on 24 April 1943, Churchill assured the Soviets: "We shall certainly oppose vigorously any 'investigation' by the International Red Cross or any other body in any territory under German authority. Such investigation would be a fraud and its conclusions reached by terrorism". Unofficial or classified UK documents concluded that Soviet guilt was a "near certainty", but the alliance with the Soviets was deemed to be more important than moral issues; thus the official version supported the Soviets, up to censoring any contradictory accounts. Churchill asked Owen O'Malley to investigate the issue, but in a note to the Foreign Secretary he noted: "All this is merely to ascertain the facts, because we should none of us ever speak a word about it." O'Malley pointed out several inconsistencies and near impossibilities in the Soviet version. Later, Churchill sent a copy of the report to Roosevelt on 13 August 1943. The report deconstructed the Soviet account of the massacre and alluded to the political consequences within a strongly moral framework but recognized there was no viable alternative to the existing policy. No comment by Roosevelt on the O'Malley report has been found. Churchill's own post-war account of the Katyn affair gives little further insight. In his memoirs, he refers to the 1944 Soviet inquiry into the massacre, which found the Germans responsible, and adds, "belief seems an act of faith".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

In the same way, admitting that Putin is responsible for an action on British soil, doesn't fit terribly well with the narrative Milne tries to propagate about the 'evil west' and how Putin is the result of western oppression like the working classes or parts of the middle east. The idea that its a bit more complicated than that, and the west might, indeed, have to take action against an aggressive hostile who isn't a helpless victim doesn't work.

Its deliberate political blindness. In other words, its every bit about using a situation for political gain as May.

Facts don't really matter to Corbyn and Milne. They are pursuing a Trumpesque / Brexit style approach to political communication. Yet here they are saying they suddenly matter. Where else do facts matter to Labour policy right now? Its rather more limited than it should be.

Saying 'we need more evidence' is little more than a way of avoiding making another difficult and potentially controversial decision. Its a way of sticking to their ideology by ignoring the bits of history or current affairs they don't like.

From 2015
www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2015/10/i-wanted-believe-jeremy-corbyn-i-cant-believe-seumas-milne
I wanted to believe in Jeremy Corbyn. But I can't believe in Seumas Milne

Don't get me wrong. May is just as guilty of the same thing. We see it and we call it out. The comparisons with Nazis and presence of the far right make it easier to do. But the key point here is at least see it and identify the problem. Its somewhat easier to challenge for this reason.

With Corbyn, we don't. Stalin's atrocities 'aren't as bad' as Hitler's somehow. We didn't learn about it at school in the same way. The Soviet Union were 'on our side' in WWII and weren't the enemy. The Cold War doesn't really count as we had peace in Europe and that was all good for everyone. We know about the gestapo because of 'Allo 'Allo etc, but we don't really talk about the Stasi in the same way.

Instead, the far left is being sold as rather cool. That makes it much more difficult to resist. Trying to hold to account and debate, is being discriminatory or heartless regardless of the merit of argument or 'the evidence' presented. Political correctness has been weaponised and on this UKIP were right all along (yuk did I really just say that?!). Freedom of speech and the ability to whistleblow is just as hindered as it is under the bureaucratic weight and the dominance of Tory the 'old boys club'.

Yeah we need the centre.

Whatever forces and propaganda bollocks from both sides is going on, being blind to one or the other is dangerous. I will hold anyone who tries to whitewash the far left at arms length and question their motives every bit as much as the far right.

I do think that the criticism of the BBC over the hat is a bit crackers. I do agree it should not have happened, but at the same time it is just a reflection of Corbyn himself. For many, they were already looking at Corbyn with those same suspicions and didn't need Owen Jones to point it out. People would not have such concerns, if Corbyn wasn't hanging out with the people he is and wasn't acting the way he is. Its sort of an Emperor's New Clothes moment rather than merely an outright smear. Newsnight, is a late night show which few people actually watch; ironically Jones drawing attention to it, might make the BBC more hesitant in the way they report, but its also facilitated a Barbara Streisand effect too.

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woman11017 · 18/03/2018 12:10

What's a Barbara Streisand effect?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 18/03/2018 12:12

Trying to suppress information which makes people curious about what you're trying to hide, ironically leading the thing you're trying to deflect attention from being even more scrutinised.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 18/03/2018 12:12

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

RedToothBrush · 18/03/2018 12:12

Streisand effect
The Streisand effect is the phenomenon whereby an attempt to hide, remove, or censor a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely, usually facilitated by the Internet.

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woman11017 · 18/03/2018 12:17

Aww, I thought it was a big song, thanks pain and red. < I like Barbara Streisand>

Peregrina · 18/03/2018 12:19

However, I refuse to twist the facts when another country or leader does something far more wicked than she has ever attempted

I'm not so willing to give May a free pass here. We know Putin's background, we know what he is capable of, and we know that he is a nasty piece of work.

However, May never passes up an opportunity to parade her Christian credentials, yet she is quite happy to support austerity, which has mostly hit the poor and disabled, and only the other day was happy to vote to stop significant numbers claiming free school meals, except in N Ireland. She claims a higher moral authority, but does little or nothing in practice to demonstrate this. Is a disabled person who commits suicide because their benefits have been cut, possibly mistakenly, not a death directly attributable to the policies she's happy to espouse?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 18/03/2018 12:26

Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
NEW: 'Facebook "misled" MPs.'
'Zuckerberg needs to testify to parliament.'
Strong words from head of UK fake news inquiry, @DamianCollins

www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/18/cambridge-analytica-and-facebook-accused-of-misleading-mps-over-data-breach

RedToothBrush · 18/03/2018 12:33

Peregina, I have to ask whether Corbyn will improve it either though.

He supports Brexit. I think we need more taxation to deal with it, but some of the ideas coming out of the labour party look more like 'punishment' rather than reasonable approaches. Plus they won't work as they don't get to the heart of problems because they are taking an ideological approach rather than a pragmatic one based on information.

I suspect that rather than ease the situation, in many cases it would exacerbate them and fuel a class divide further, possibly to dangerous levels.

That's my dilemma. Would Corbyn make things better with the approach and rhetoric that he is coming out? I can't honestly say, hand in heart that he would be better in practice. May might be cold, heartless and cynical. Corbyn has just as many political blind spots and does has this support which is vindictive and nasty, which he turns too much of a blind eye to, to not be cynical in his own way.

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BigChocFrenzy · 18/03/2018 12:34

You're right, red presenting evidence to Corbyn & Milne would probably be pointless anyway
Some people will never accept Russia or Putin have done wrong, whatever the evidence

Yes, my generation are probably more aware of the Katyn Massacres by the Soviets
the purpose of which was to wipe out the Polish middle class and intelligentsia, to make it easier later to rule a conquered Poland.

There were about 22,000 victims, many army officers and police, but also lawyers, priests, anyone capable of joining an effective resistance against the USSR

This horrific and premeditated set of war crimes by the USSR does not seem to be taught in UK history lessons
or discussed when other WW2 atrocities are mentioned.
The hard left is silent of course, but it seems the victims became non-persons, written out of Uk history knowledge.

Also forgotten is that at the end of WW2, British troops with British bayonets forced terrified E European refugees back into the arms of their new USSR masters
because the UK and US did not want to risk war with the USSR, who were demanding their return.

RedToothBrush · 18/03/2018 12:43

BigChoc, I knew nothing of it until today. A friend of mine of polish descent whose family moved here during WWII happened to mention it. He speaks the language and retains close ties to the country, with some of his family staying and some moving back there. He's very concerned by both the far left and right and how the politics in this country are playing out.

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BigChocFrenzy · 18/03/2018 12:45

peregrina
Deaths from May's policies are a unintended side effect

Deaths from Putin's policies are the intended result

Any party will limit the welfare & NHS budgets, so even Labour would have had some deaths that could have been saved by more money
It's just that there are far more under the Tories

It would be very different if the UK govt caused those deaths by nerve agents or other poison:
The Nuremburg trials established that.

If Russia didn't have all those nukes, then the International Criminal Court at the Hague would have already tried Putin for past crimes.

At least the Uk should send the evidence to the ICC
You never know, Putin might have to flee if a rival gang of oligarchs take over,
or even if Russia turns 180 degrees again and the communists get back into power.

Referring to the UN was a good step by May - she probably listens to civil servants when it is not about Brexit

All such international bodies may embarrass and infuriate Putin, but won't risk war

Peregrina · 18/03/2018 12:46

No the Stalinist atrocities of the 1930s and the war crimes committed are not taught. It became a question of my enemy's enemy is my friend, and since then the narrative has been 'We won the War'.

Having said that, it was the Establishment figures of Burgess, McLean, Philby and Blunt who were actual traitors.

Certain sections of the Labour party have a problem because they want to believe in a Socialist paradise, even though their own eyes should have told them it was never so.

Peregrina · 18/03/2018 12:55

Deaths from May's policies are a unintended side effect
Deaths from Putin's policies are the intended result

So, "I didn't mean them to die" is a good excuse, is it? Is, " I couldn't be bothered to find out how my policies were affecting people.", is a good defence, is it? It sounds suspiciously on a par with "I was only obeying orders." My complaint is about her appeal to a higher moral authority, but she fails to suit her actions to her words.

No, I am not excusing Putin, but I am not letting May get away with actions which I feel border on criminal.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/03/2018 12:55

red I am really shocked if the Katyn massacre has disappeared from general knowledge
I have always known of it;
it wasn't taught, but was just fairly common knowledge
I assumed that like the Holocaust, this would always be something that at least all educated people still knew about.

Alarming how some knowledge just "disappears"
I know it was embarrassing for the USSR and its friends, inconvenient that people know about this Soviet crime against humanity
but others must also have made the decision not to talk about this
Thise in power decided not to teach it in school to the next generation.

Is the just the UK, or has it been forgotten in the US, in France ?
Presumably not in Poland
Not forgotten in Germany either, as the Soviets kept trying to blame them for it.

mrsreynolds · 18/03/2018 12:57

My ds1 (14) has been learning about Lenin, stalin and the purges after studying animal farm in English

And the rise of the third Reich in the 30s in history

ALittleAubergine · 18/03/2018 13:02

I think a coalition approach would limit hard divisions and better guarantee that a government is looking after the general population rather than just its core voters or even worse the lobbies.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 18/03/2018 13:06

We were taught about the Katyn massacres at school for gcse history

BigChocFrenzy · 18/03/2018 13:09

Thanks, , pain
I was afraid Katyn had been written out of history.
Just written out of UK general knowledge then, but not totally.

RedToothBrush · 18/03/2018 13:16

We were taught about the Katyn massacres at school for gcse history

Ah. I didn't do history gcse, but did do a level and history as part of my degree.

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woman11017 · 18/03/2018 13:21

I did Katyn on A level history and Oradour-sur-Glane massacre.

Current GCSE history has a massive component of Medicine Through Time Confused and does the 'nazis' just up to 1939. Not sure if that is the same on all syllabuses.
www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/history/shp/