Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: From Russia with Love

996 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2018 21:11

Things just got scary.

The colony of US puppet state or a vassel state of the EU?

Why not just let market forces take their course and let Russia buy the UK?

How did we get to stories of spies and mafia who buy politicians?

Just who are our enemies and allies?

Won't someone think of the effect on house prices in Salisbury?

Try not to don your foil hat, brace yourself and resist shouting 'money laundering too loud'.

More turbulence ahead.

Brexit still seems like such a cracking idea doesn't it?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
thecatfromjapan · 15/03/2018 23:20

On the theme of: "That's not my Brexit - it has us in the European army ... (repeat with own additions).

Steve Analyst @EmperorsNewClothes

has compiled an excellent thread of clips comparing what various Brexiteers said before and during the Referendum (with regard to being in the Single Market) and what they are saying now.

here

Spoiler: Pre-Referendum they promised unicorns access to the Single Market and now they are saying everyone knew there would be no access to the Single Market.

This really matters. For many reasons.

History - and thus the present - is being re-written.

This research should not be on Twitter. It should be in the mainstream. Sad

Alarmingly, the thread also shows that what has been picked up is selective edits, showing quite a different kind of history, which have originated in alt-right new sources.

Now that is worrying.

thecatfromjapan · 15/03/2018 23:21

@Pain Grin

X-post.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 15/03/2018 23:23

I've never felt so understood cat Grin

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2018 23:29

Daily politics should be ashamed of themselves. Their job as journalists is to do what...

OP posts:
Peregrina · 15/03/2018 23:32

We leave the EU. And join the EU army anyway.
Grin Grin. That would get the Brexiteers frothing at the mouth. Why won't I feel sorry for them?

Sostenueto · 15/03/2018 23:33

Woman he spoke the truth Putin would do that he doesn't care!

Sostenueto · 15/03/2018 23:37

Blimey what a clanger by Chris Grayling!

ALittleAubergine · 15/03/2018 23:37

Interesting question time but at times painful to watch...

Peregrina · 15/03/2018 23:38

What's Chris Grayling done?

Sostenueto · 15/03/2018 23:43

He's saying no queues or checks at the border when we leave EU. European vice president said don't be stupid basically.

Peregrina · 15/03/2018 23:44

Twerp.

Sostenueto · 15/03/2018 23:44

Either we are staying in the customs union and Chris Grayling has let cat out if bag or he has no idea about checks that would be needed when we leave EU.Confused

Sostenueto · 16/03/2018 00:01

Omg! Its midnight got to be up at 5 to take dd to work thanks to all of you for putting up with me.Flowers

womanformallyknownaswoman · 16/03/2018 01:51

@PainInTheEar @thecatfromjapan @RedToothBrush

appreciate the links and analysis. Brexit referendum was trolling and undermining at its worse - just like the Trump election - it couldn't have happened without interference and wholesale manipulation of public opinion. Yes there is a problem with immigration (caused by Brown & Blair not implementing the controls as they should have done). And saying immigration is necessary is a lie - so they get slave labour to do shit jobs.

It doesn't excuse why so many of the traditional working class are failed and why effort hasn't been put into giving them other chances and options.

Did you know for example that Bulgaria and Romania are leading in women in software engineering - why? Because under communism women were given the jobs that men traditionally did. There as a lot wrong with communism Russian style but some things they got right.

Women are the answer and predatory men know it hence why they target us. We have to unite and fight and create a society that works for women cos we do know best in many circumstances. The men can't be trusted as they have demonstrated time and time again

lonelyplanetmum · 16/03/2018 03:12

Occasional menopausal insomnia has its advantages for catching up with news.(Sorry if it’s all appeared upthread but I don’t think it has.)

The EU has been clearly setting out their position on future EU-UK relations. Please note their position is open, well thought out, democratic and principled. (I will never accept the injustice that this beneficial union has been blamed for our many acute domestic ills.)

By contrast our position has been largely chaotic and clandestine. On the first point our concerns are shady and shabby. Our actions leading to the third point are off the scale of embarrassing.

1.	An EU Parliament resultion was passed ( yesterday?) calling for the withdrawal agreement to require  the UK to adhere to rules governing tax evasion and avoidance. 
2.	Uk should also adhere to international and EU obligations in the fields of fair and rules-based competition, including state aid, social and workers’ rights,social protection and safeguards against social dumping, the environment, climate change, consumer protection, public health, sanitary and phytosanitary measures, animal health and welfare, taxation, including the fight against tax evasion and avoidance, money laundering, and data protection and privacy, together with a clear enforcement mechanism to ensure compliance".


3.	The resolution also expresses alarm "that the draft Withdrawal Agreement, which translates into legal form the Joint Report of 8 December 2017, has been received with such hostility by the British Government. In line with the European Parliament resolution of 13 December and the Council Guidelines of 15 December, we regret that the British Government is not acting in good faith and feel therefore that the attention of the EU should be focused on ensuring that the commitments undertaken during the first phase are respected in full and translated faithfully into legal terms as quickly as possible."

There are sections on citizens rights.
mollymep.org.uk/2018/03/14/ep-votes-to-block-tax-haven-britain/

See www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+MOTION+B8-2018-0135+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN

lonelyplanetmum · 16/03/2018 03:15

There were two links in post below although they looked merged!

mollymep.org.uk/2018/03/14/ep-votes-to-block-tax-haven-britain/

See www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+MOTION+B8-2018-0135+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN

mathanxiety · 16/03/2018 05:54

TheCat
If other nations are a bit knoecked off balance, it proves the idea that western liberal democracy is a flawed programme and is in imminent danger of collapse (you'll notice, here, the direct similarity with a lot of the Leave rhetoric which bangs on about the EU being a flawed project, in imminent danger of collapse)

I think there is a danger here of associating very legitimate internal and external criticism of the US, the UK and other states with 'propaganda' or manipulation whose source is Russia. It's not a case of being either with us or against us. Plenty of posters here opposed the Iraq war and continue to hold Tony Blair in poor esteem because of his lies and his toadyism and his very poor judgement. The scorn is amply justified imo.

Bernie Sanders for instance continues to offer trenchant criticism of how the US is run, and to offer the analysis that it is a flawed project and how it could be improved. He garnered a huge amount of support in the primaries. Martin Luther King's theme was similar but with a different focus. Russia opposed the Iraq War on grounds that there were no weapons of mass destruction there, and rightly complains about the destabilisation of the middle east that was caused by the foreign policy adventures of Messrs Bush and Blair, and continued by Hillary Clinton as Sec of State - in Egypt, in Syria, in Libya, and in Ukraine. Say what you like about Yanukovych, he was democratically elected, and the succeeding administration of Yatsenyuk was hand picked by the State Department after a revolution that was at the very least encouraged by the US, and midwifed by some very dodgy elements in Ukraine.

I also think there is a danger of over-analysing. Often, when an event happens, or seems to happen, there is a tendency to look back with slightly better than 20-20 hindsight, and pick out all the signposts along the way that led to that point, thus confirming its inevitability and simultaneously confirming whatever we may believe about a national culture or national myths. It is often a better idea to look at chronology - to establish what happened and what happened next. In the case of Russia's decisions over the last ten years, we can note that Moscow has been very efficient at capitalising on US/UK missteps, and has managed to turn several situations to its advantage, none of which were caused by Moscow.

Who is now best friends with Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, president of Egypt, whose run was backed by Moscow after he dispatched the Muslim Brotherhood government that came to power in the wake of the Arab Spring that was encouraged, at the least, by the US (and resulted in the deposing of a staunch US ally)? www.voanews.com/a/putin-in-egypt/4158252.html This Voice of America article details Egyptian support for Russia in Syria, Saudi softening towards Russia, the US being sidelined in Egypt, hopes that Russia will be able to rein in Iran - all thanks to ill-considered intervention and a far more aggressive policy of reshaping the middle east than was warranted. Russia appears to have a far more deft hand than the US in the middle east. (Flights were in fact resumed).

Syria is another case in point - Russian intervention has been crucial in almost wiping ISIS/Daesh out, and will most likely be successful in the end. Russia will have a seat at the table when the future of Syria is discussed. In fact, Russia will decide who else sits there. Russia has demonstrated to a region that is heavily armed (thanks to the west and to Russia too) and not even close to democratic in its political culture that it is not interested in revolution or the deposing of rulers. The US by contrast has shown that it can turn against allies. This was perhaps a factor in the decision of Erdogan to take Turkey off the western engagement track and to set off on its own path.

Ukraine continues to suffer from a deeply corrupt political culture.
'The Toxic Coddling of Petro Poroshenko' foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/13/the-toxic-coddling-of-kiev-ukraine-poroshenko-yatsenuk/ gives an idea of the issues and asserts that western backing of Poroshenko & Co is ultimately not doing Ukraine any favours. It turns out that basket cases sometimes get that way and stay that way all by themselves, but the article argues that throwing good money after bad only enables the crooks. Poroshenko’s power lunch is the latest iteration of what is by now a predictable pattern. Every few months, new corruption allegations rock the government; Western diplomats fly in to issue rebukes and pleas for Ukraine’s leaders to think of their people; Kiev promises to do better; the West relents. In the meantime, reforms stagnate, the grip of the oligarchs tightens, and the Ukrainian people grow even more disillusioned. This is a country where the heirs to the 1st Galician SS have already effected one revolution in the recent past. (Interesting to note Victoria Nuland testifying on how badly wrong her choice of Yatsenyuk turned out to be.) Russia capitalised on the disarray by encouraging separatists in eastern Ukraine, and by moving into Crimea. The situation is yet to be resolved, but it is unlikely that Crimea's short lived residence in Ukraine is permanently over, and it may well be that Ukraine becomes a second Ireland - divided by a border along tribal lines to solve a problem that nobody has the will to tackle.

I don't think it's necessary for Russia to prove anything about the west, and I don't think that is what Russia is doing, though Russians do love irony. Russia has got over communism far faster than the west has, and sees that the new wind that is blowing is Mercantilism Part II, with China leading the charge.

China has forged ahead with relationships in Africa and Pakistan (eg. Gwadar Port and railway development) and elsewhere, and has turned into a superpower - maybe the only really important one - without firing a shot, by means of currency manipulation before, during and after the financial crisis, playing fast and loose with intellectual property, and importing cheap primary products while exporting value-added finished products.

Meanwhile, chaos in the EU and the UK stands to benefit the mercantilist Donald Trump and his administration.

mathanxiety · 16/03/2018 05:56

but it is unlikely that Crimea's short lived residence in Ukraine is permanently over

That should be "likely", not unlikely.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 16/03/2018 06:52

Bernie Sanders has continually made problematic statements revealing that he courts the white working class vote at the expense or exclusion of the black communities. There have been several dog whistles eg

Bernie Sanders: Guns In Vermont Are Not The Same As Guns In Chicago Or Los Angeles
www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/07/07/sanders_guns_in_vermont_are_not_the_same_as_guns_in_chicago.html

Then this is a small issue too, but more so his reaction where he tried to blame this on HRC

Indictment: Russians also tried to help Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein presidential campaigns

www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/17/indictment-russians-also-tried-help-bernie-sanders-jill-stein-presidential-campaigns/348051002/

And this

www.politico.com/story/2018/02/24/bernie-sanders-russian-trolls-false-story-423413

I have to go so can’t address the rest of your post re:Ukraine and Russia in general but am just placing a marker for now that I politely disagree.

Peregrina · 16/03/2018 06:53

An interesting analysis Mathanxiety, which sounds convincing to me.
It strikes me that China is, relatively quietly, building its empire in the way that Great Britain did, with a focus on trade.

I noticed when I was in Cuba a few years ago, that the Chinese were moving in. There are many charming colonial buildings, now badly decayed as a result of the 'Special period' when the USSR collapse hit the Cuban economy hard. These are now being restored and I noted on the bags of cement 'Made in China'. A small pointer, maybe, and maybe I am making too much of it.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 16/03/2018 07:14

Trump has apparently made another firing overnight. McMaster this time, National Security Advisor. Just after he spoke out on Russia.

lonelyplanetmum · 16/03/2018 07:49

A friend of mine who works for charity sector said the same thing that Chinese investment etc is really visible all over Africa.

lonelyplanetmum · 16/03/2018 08:03

I didn't mean the investment is IN the charities sector. That's just why she goes there and sees it!

thecatfromjapan · 16/03/2018 08:08

Twitter

Chuka Umunna @ChukuUmmuna

"The @CommonsNIAC said the Govt "will not have the time to implement a new non-visible customs regime before withdrawal day" on the Irish border ..."

Well. There's a surprise. Not like Islington to Camden after all. Boris Johnson really is an absolute disgrace. I know it's a (relatively - always relatively) small thing but he's known that - as have we all - for a long time but was effectively lying in his usual attention-grabbing way, to defuse the outrage that this - rightly - must cause. He really, really needs to be held to account, by the media, on the behalf of the electorate. As an example of this whole shabby, incompetent, mendacious business.

thecatfromjapan · 16/03/2018 08:10

China is extending its influence - but I still doubt very much they were behind the Salisbury incident.

I also doubt it was the US - if only because, as Pain says - you have to ask which US at the present moment.