Westminstenders: From Russia with Love

[RedToothBrush]

Things just got scary.

The colony of US puppet state or a vassel state of the EU?

Why not just let market forces take their course and let Russia buy the UK?

How did we get to stories of spies and mafia who buy politicians?

Just who are our enemies and allies?

Won't someone think of the effect on house prices in Salisbury?

Try not to don your foil hat, brace yourself and resist shouting 'money laundering too loud'.

More turbulence ahead.

Brexit still seems like such a cracking idea doesn't it?

lonely It delivers real benefits in terms of international relations and trade deals too.

The US President is working on getting sanctions against Russia lifted. Brexit has weakened the Russia sanctioning stance of the EU. A weakened NATO (and there is still a risk that Brexit will eeaken NATO) is good for Russia's policy of geographical expansion/annexation.

Infiltrating both sides to sow chaos is exactly the playbook used in America - see the troll farms that fanned the flames of white supremacy groups and that also infiltrated black activist groups, often manouvering both groups to have protests on the same day to increase the tension even further.

And I agree with everything Red has written.

It's really, really important to look at the big picture in the UK.

For what it's worth, I think this is what I am most horrified by with regard to Jeremy Corbyn's performance at PMQ yesterday.

His line was, ultimately, that of political cynicism under the guise of criticality/political purity.

Cynicism in democratic structures is incredibly corrosive for democracy, in a way that questioning and criticality isn't. When a leader of the Opposition, in parliament, is telling the people not to believe in democratic structures you have a serious, serious problem. An actually dangerous situation.

And that message: 'Don't trust your democratic structures' was driven home by his spokesman - just in case the hard of hearing missed it.

I'm already seeing the effects of this on MN.

On the spy poisoning thread, a poster repeated the 'Well, you can't trust them' line, using bits of the Corbyn/Milne line. Obviously, it;s fine to say things like that, entertain/explore such lines of thinking. However, it's an absolute problem when that mistrust of democratic structure is an utterance that has been given the legitimising force of having been enunciated by the leader of the Opposition, in parliament, in response to the PM outlining the UK's response.

It does something very, very corrosive to the democratic centre.

Note how difficult it is for the centre to organise.

The reason I despair of the LDs is their utter failure at seeing the issue and understanding the basic principles of errr liberal democracy.

Their problem is that the coalition left them in a position where middle class blind spots and the lack of working class involvement, utterly destroyed their credibility. Not because it was necessarily a LD thing, but because they was intertwined with the Cons who totally lack any awareness of it.

It wasn't student fees that were the problem. Student fees came about ironically because Clegg realised the need to think about basic education for all kids, early on and putting that ahead of students. His priority WAS right, but it also shows the limitation of the choices he had as a junior coalition member.

Its been weaponised to fuel student politics as a breeding ground for Corbyn's nonsense which again is even more middle class blind.

In the mix of all this, you still have all these discontented working class voters. Neither the cons nor labour will serve them anytime soon. If Corbyn gets power he will be found out.

That underlying rage, isnt being addressed. This is a major problem.

Also note the Tory rebels are overwhelming lawyers and solitictors. People who are taught the pillars of liberal democracy and people who although generally very middle class often do get exposed to complex social issues and the people caught up in them. (Depending on the type of law they did of course).

Its a relief to see pennies dropping.

Dan Hodges @ dpjhodges
Labour MP tells @BethRigby they have zero confidence in Jeremy Corbyn over national security. In which case they have an obligation to resign the Labour-whip. National security is the primary responsibility of any government or opposition.

Beth Rigby @ bethrigby
How many MPs would be left in the labour party if MPs resigned the whips on the basis on having no confidence in JC’s stance on national security

Dan Hodges @ dpjhodges
Good question

How did France esacape unscathed? I don’t know enough about French politics to understand how macaron stormed the centre, without even factoring in that his emails were stolen and released etc

If you were taking a case to court based on circumstantial evidence only would you win your case? This is a genuine question.

I don't think you can say that France escaped unscathed, we still have a very active and popular nazi party.

Macron's success was a combination of a number of factors outside his control (weakened socialist party with a nonentity as candidate, and the republican's decision to run a crook for president), a very bold and intelligent electoral strategy, and an electoral system that makes it possible for new parties to emerge. The two round process means the vote is split numerous ways in the first round - Macron proceeded to the second round of the presidential with only 23% of the vote - which is very similar to the Lib Dems vote share in 2010.

Resign the labour whip.

I don't know if this scares me or makes me relieved.

I know this is the dilemma many party members are facing too.

Stay and fight from within (can you?) Or leave, letting the Labour party be dangerously exposed to total take over from Momentum and fight from outside.

The problem is the lack of credible place to go to do that.

I would join a new centre left group. (Or even centre right if im honest). I think i'd have to.

But it has to abandon this bollocks liberal progressive shit, which ignores the importance of free speech and thought (and something I know is happening in the LDs with people removed from post for it - Farron being the big scalp, but not the only one).

Would you mind if I point you towards Legal, Sostenueto? I think that's complex - and since I think you're also asking about the relationship between domestic and internatioal law and also international action - it's probably going to take a lot of space that might be best explored in its own thread.

If this is about the chemical weapons - the military lab determined that it was a chemical that could only have originated from Russia, either meaning they used it themselves or it got in to other hands and they used it (unlikely). This isn’t corcumstantial evidence (I don’t think - happy to be corrected).

They were also asked to explain which of the two it was, with May throwing them a very implausible way out of not accepting responsibility but they haven’t taken it.

Or in fact what cat said

Tbh, what might seem like a get-out clause in Western politics - an acceptance that the nerve agent was of Russian origin but had somehow fallen into non-government/foreign hands - is probably even worse PR for the Kremlin than admitting to the attempted murder. If everyone in Russia believes that this was ordered by the government, then there is a boldness- and ruthlessness - about it that bolsters Putin; losing track of a lethal chemical makes him and the government look wildly incompetent and dangerously weak.

OK then, how can May be 100%/sure it was the Russians? Have they got the person who did it? Don't get me wrong it was probably the Russians but probably is not definitely.
Yes the Russians made that nerve gas, do we know what nerve gas America has or China or north Korea? The guy attacked was Russian he was also a known double agent, maybe a triple for all we really know.
I'm just saying that all the consensus based on circumstantial evidence points to Russia but I'm a bit uncomfortable in completely accepting that.

I personally am done with being kicked down by almost every decision by the government in the past few years. I'm not happy about everything in the labour party at the moment but can't afford another 5years of tories.

Now would be a good day to close RT(QT in Dover tonight) and start to tax Mogg.
And roll it out from there.

There's a FT article I can't find about HMRC going after Russian accounts, it was from a couple of weeks ago?

politicalscrapbook.net/2018/03/jacob-rees-mogg-firm-manages-nearly-100m-invested-in-russia/

We're bit parts in Putin's 're election campaign'.

Our destruction is just collateral: see Ukraine.

Cancelling 'brexit' would really hurt Putin.

We can put any theory forward on why Russia would do it. According to Boris Johnson the Russians smugness points to their guilt! But are we 100% sure? Is this why France is holding back? Or does France favour Russia?

Am I the only one that wants 100% verification (sigh)

Until yesterday, I was in two minds about this one. Watching the machinery creak into action again, it's helped me decide what I think is the truth.
They may have overplayed their hand.

I actually agreed with Corbyn's measured response yesterday but see that I am out of step with most of this thread. I really don't think that Macron is asking for more evidence because of Corbyn. Just read that Boris blustered and flustered his way through questions on Radio 4 about France and the request for more evidence. I think Russia is behind this but I don't think a request for more evidence and to follow international law is wrong.

woman do you mean the Russians? Sorry I'm a bit slow to catch on.

Sos There is a really,
really good, detailed, discussion as to why 100%
verification is near-impossible over on the poisoning thread -
here for anyone who is interested.

It's excellent. And is being added to by posters with a scientific background.

That's fine, violetparis. It's a thread for discussion. We're going to disagree on various things - but keep listening to each other and using that exchange of views and information to deepen our own understanding. I think. Well, I am, anyway.

Thanks violet I, too thought Corbyn was measured, I wonder if he was thinking of Iraq as I was. Yes I agree that international law should be followed and asking for more evidence too. I worry May has jumped too soon.