The Brexit Arms

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The Brexit thread.

By Brexiters, for Brexiters.

Remainers welcome, but gobshites & goadyfuckers are encouraged to take their business elsewhere.

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howabout how can you say that in all seriousness?

The Uk committed to finding a solution in December that didn't involve a hard border

That was deemed 'sufficient progress' and only by the skin of its teeth.

We haven't got the first clue how to do that since we've committed to leaving SM/CU.

What part of that don't you get?

There already is a border bear. It is the "hard" part I am having a problem seeing the problem with given the proposal to have a de minimus threshold and pre border licencing for the rest. There is already even paperwork to deal with different currency, VAT rates etc.

howabout the proposal was pathetic.

It was a version of an honesty border.

Yes, and the UK agreed the alignment and now need to put their propositions in black and white. But the recent speech by May ruled out SM and CU. So they have to tie up what they agreed with that. The chickens are coming home to roost. The first phase always had to be dealt with before the second phase properly commenced. That is why they gave until March. The UK were spinning that the EU had done a fudge on Ireland. Same as the 'you're only pawns being used' baiting. Hence the DD wink and saying they didn't really have to abide by their agreement.

DGR I am sure there are those in Scotland who feel as you suggest, but given the chronology of Indyref, EU ref and GE 2017 and their outcomes I doubt they are or will ever be a majority. Certainly not among people I know anyway and I am in Scotland.

There already is a border bear. It is the "hard" part I am having a problem seeing the problem with given the proposal to have a de minimus threshold and pre border licencing for the rest. There is already even paperwork to deal with different currency, VAT rates etc.

So much frippery.

The GFA rules out a hard border, and that - unless it is renegotiated, or reneged upon - is that.

@howabout

Oh no? see bold below

49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

50. In the absence of agreed solutions, as set out in the previous paragraph, the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland. In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland's businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.

DGR I am sure there are those in Scotland who feel as you suggest, but given the chronology of Indyref, EU ref and GE 2017 and their outcomes I doubt they are or will ever be a majority. Certainly not among people I know anyway and I am in Scotland.

Willing to take my cue from you. As I say, I don't live there, and have no real connection, beyond appreciating Glen Moray, and the sentimental pull of the skirl of the bagpipes and fuzzy history lessons.

Maybe we could see the recreation of the Gaelic country - where Ireland ruled the west before the Synod of Whitby ?

Actually all: My read of Article 50 is that a border in the Irish Sea won't work either ...

This basically means the UK MUST remain in the SM/CU ...

I am with Mother but still unlikely to get a vote as I have moved further away. Would seriously consider buying a house in Scotland if the opportunity to vote again came up though.

howabout
It is the "hard" part I am having a problem seeing the problem with given the proposal to have a de minimus threshold and pre border licencing for the rest.
BUT
The edge of RoI will be the edge of the EU
It will have the same status as the border with Ukraine or Serbia or Albania
And the EU has to have the same rules for all of its non SM/CU borders
Why is that so hard for you to understand ?

This paper by Katy Hayward explains it pretty well.

If the UK leaves both the Customs Union and the Single Market, and if Northern Ireland is not to have controls on the movement of goods to and from Great Britain, it will be part of a third country.

And:

The mechanisms that will be used to manage the Irish customs border must benefit from the application of cutting-edge technologies, applied in support of risk-assessed, intelligence-led schemes of control. These will not, however, negate the need for some measure of physical control and examination if the integrity of both the UK market and the Single Market is to be protected.

Katy Hayward who is an "expert" in sociology, not trade law or commercial practice.

Olivia finally something we agree on

bear not much "honesty" involved when the EU are offering zero tariff which we would reciprocate. As I said earlier I struggle to understand why regulatory compliance would not be dealt with at point of sale in the importing country?

Howabout you are still missing the point that the change in the border is the key factor, not that there may be many ways to alleviate the process of passing goods, be they animate or not, so as to reduce delay/bureaucracy.

It is the actual breach of the terms of the GFA/BA/peace agreement that is at issue that will occur if the UK leaves the SM/CU. It is a matter of international law, adherence to a treaty the UK willingly entered in to and, as restated by TM only last week, the UK continues to want to uphold.

Is there a precedent in international law that supports your suggestion that the breach can be ignored in such circumstances?

howabout
As I said earlier I struggle to understand why regulatory compliance would not be dealt with at point of sale in the importing country?
Sorry, what ?
You expect every corner shop to handle customs clearance and legality checks
GET REAL

JWIM the short though somewhat flippant answer is yes, happens all the time.

International Law is not the literal interpretation rules based system which EU law is. I am fairly comfortable with this as I am a Scottish lawyer which, in theory, is principle rather than literally based in contrast to English law which is much more codified.

Every corner shop is already responsible for the legality of the products it sells Talk, or how would it deal with domestically produced and sourced products?

Yes, Dr Katy Hayward, political sociologist, “expert” on the Irish border, PhD on the subject of the impact of European integration on cross-border relations on the island of Ireland and author of a number of peer reviewed papers.

howabout
Every corner shop is already responsible for the legality of the products it sells Talk, or how would it deal with domestically produced and sourced products?
Contract law and supply chains not a strong point of yours then ?

and author of a number of peer reviewed papers.

Unfortunately, authors of peer reviewed papers (& the peer reviewed papers themselves) were rejected as credible sources earlier in the thread by the remain contingent.

PhD on the subject of the impact of European integration on cross-border relations on the island of Ireland

Qualified people, and SMEs were also rejected as credible sources by the same poster.

Irrelevant to the qualifications of any author or other ......

When the UK leave the EU, the border between any EU country and the UK becomes
the edge of the EU
and that is a secure border all over - from Spain to Kaliningrad to Albania
and thus the secure border would have to be in Ireland
but it cannot under the GFA
so it has to be somewhere else ........

@howabout

How does the EU know the exporter has complied with regulations? Just coz someone in the UK said so?

For goods that need to qualify for low tariffs under rules origin, who attests to the local content? How does the EU know?

What about fraud? If nothing is checked what do you think will happen to the incidence of customs fraud ?

Pascal Lamy certainly knows his onions. before the Parliamentary Committee.

The moment the UK exits the EU, there has to be a border and the choice in North South or East West. He assumes the North /South would be the different regime, so the moment uk out of CU, there has to be a border.

He also gave the example of Macau which has an autonomous customs policy. Still belongs to China, but members of WTO in their own right. If you gave autonomous customs policy to NI, they could have same trade relations as Irl. Otherwise, there has to be a border.

In my view, and I'm putting it as an expert , if it is not north/south, it has to be east/west. Politically sensitive question.

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/8b00ce90-e83d-4f76-8c87-b0d2d2174af7

@Cailleach1

What about this?

50. In the absence of agreed solutions, as set out in the previous paragraph, the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland. In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland's businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.