Westministenders: One for the Women

[RedToothBrush]

Just remember that women are more likely to be worried about Brexit.

Their women's and workers rights are more at risk from departure from the EU, the ECJ and potentially the EHCR.
They are more likely to be worried as EU citizens in the UK due to taking time to have and raise families.
They are more likely to have been badly affected by austerity and an economic downturn will hit them first.
If they are leavers they are more likely to have changed their minds.
They are less likely to be MPs so have less representation.
They are more likely to be feeling politically unrepresented by any party and unsure of who they will vote for at the next election.
They are more likely to get abuse for expressing a political opinion. Many report having been subjected to sexual harassment from political colleagues.
They are more likely to be the target of abuse on social media.
They are earn less than their political colleagues, they earn less than their media colleagues, they earn less than their business colleagues. They are less likely to be in powerful lobby groups.

Then there's #metoo

And to cap it off women's groups are finding it hard to get their voice heard, and are frequently being labelled as hysterical or bigoted for merely wanting to discuss things and be reassured that their fears are acknowledged. They are frequently dismissed as liars or over sensitive.

This is 2018.

It doesn't feel progressive. It doesn't look equal.

Brexit has more of an impact on women.

It has always been obvious to me what Trump is.

Actually I think its ignorant to persistently call others ignorant. Misinformed sounds much more refined

Yes, but Brexiteers were not misinformed. They were deliberately ignorant. They chose not to educate themselves. A little like people who continue to make racist (or sexist) "jokes" long after being told it's unacceptable. They are not "misinformed" - just pig ignorant.

OK Michael I just really loathe that word.

Re: 'ignorant', I can't speak for others but I, on this kind of thread, would use the term in quite a literal sense – if you say someone is ignorant of the facts it doesn't mean they're stupid, it just means they don't know the facts.

Ignorance is no shame. I will happily admit I am ignorant of much more than I would claim not to be. Indeed, ignorance, is our natural state.

Wilful ignorance on the other hand is inexcusable.

Well, I tried my hardest at the time of the referendum to get as much information as I could so I could make an informed choice. Unfortunately I couldn't make my mind up due probably to my inability to ask the right questions. And, maybe, just maybe, ( because I always want to give others the benefit of the doubt) that's what a lot of leavers didn't do either, ask the right questions.

Leave voters were not 'misinformed' - they were given expert analysis of what would happen and chose to dub it 'project fear.'
They looked at people like Boris Johnson and JRM and pretended to believe that men such as these would ever be on the side of the little people - because they were spouting the nationalistic crap the leavers wanted to hear.
They were told baseless lies an accepted them willingly - despite ignoring aforementioned expert analysis - they had had enough of experts.
They deliberately chose not to see or hear the truth and embarked on a project of national sabotage because it gave them warm feelings about the old days of empire... or because they didn't like brown people living here... or because they wanted to give Cameron a bloody nose and didn't take the time to listen to him telling them that every vote would count - if leave won by just one vote we would leave - or because they blamed the EU for what was UK govt policy (again info of which was out there).

That isn't misinformed it's ignorant. The information was out there -they wilfully ignored it. And it isn't ignorant to point out the truth. If you hate the word - that's your issue. Doesn't make the fact any less true.

I don't know, Sostenueto.

I've been ill for 7 months. During that time, I've had plenty of opportunity to think about just how vulnerable I am - right now, and in the Brexity landscape that's coming.

It occurred to me, many times, that the Leave vote was a vote to make my life harder - a lot harder.

It also occurred to me that, had I somehow managed to stand in front of a lot of Leave voters, in the flesh, and explained to them that their vote would make my life (this flesh and blood human being standing in front of them) harder - would cause me actual, physical and mental harm - they'd have gone ahead and voted Leave anyway.

It's quite hard to swallow this truth.

It's quite hard to realise this and then sit happily swallowing the line that Leave voters should be absolved of all responsibility because they were silly billies, or daft, innocent child-like things.

Because, the horrible horrible truth - the one we are never supposed to mention - is that a substantial proportion of Leave voters chose a vote that resulted in real, actual harm to me for racist reasons. Or ridiculous, petty (and ususally incorrect) reasons of narrow self-interest (I'm thinking of the MN voter who explained she was voting Leave because she ran a vegetable shop and wanted to sell more UK-grown veg at the moment, but her customers insisted on buying cheap EU imports - I suspect that is not going the way she expected ...). Or because they were just too lazy to think beyond the Express and the Mail. I could go on.

It's very, very hard to get past that.

Not treating people like children, not patronising people cuts two ways: if you're not going to patronise people, then you have to assume they are psychologically competent enough to be held accountable for their decisions.

However ...

On an instrumental front, I guess you have to allow people a way back. You have to keep some sort of door open, so that they aren't too humiliated and ashamed to accept the stupidity of what they've done ...

And there is also the issue that, alas, there is no way of ensuring only Leave voters carry the consequences of the vote. If only ... but there isn't. So I am working, very hard, on losing the anger.

I think DGRossetti is correct, though. I think there is a little trickle. I think they are, indeed, quite 'shy'. Who wouldn't be? They availed themselves of the opportunity to fuck up on a scale rarely afforded in one mere human lifetime. They are complicit in a national fuck up on the scale of a self-inflicted war. I'd be shy, too.

We'll see.

Well, I tried my hardest at the time of the referendum to get as much information as I could so I could make an informed choice. Unfortunately I couldn't make my mind up due probably to my inability to ask the right questions. And, maybe, just maybe, ( because I always want to give others the benefit of the doubt) that's what a lot of leavers didn't do either, ask the right questions.

So, nearly 2 years on, do you feel the points made by Leaver were valid, and their calling of what Brexit means correct ? Bearing in mind they won (although not many people may know this ).

It occurred to me, many times, that the Leave vote was a vote to make my life harder - a lot harder.

I'm sure it wasn't personal ....

Yes - they did vote to make themselves poorer and to destroy the nhs. Being too ignorant to understand that isn't an excuse. They cast their vote and this is what they got. It's what they voted for.
Absolutely. In much the same way ignorance of the law is not an excuse. But you know, feelz and all that.

Bu it's always personal, DG. There are always real people behind these things. And I think that is something I find so difficult to stomach because I am quite sure that a lot of people voted precisely because they wanted to give someone, somewhere (usually immigrants) a bit of a kicking. That's a very weird, violent, angry, dynamic behind a vote. And it is such a stupid reason, too, when you are actually, ultimately, voting to hurt yourself and your children.

So weird.

And I do think people knew it. That's why so many Leave voters, when interviewed in Vox Pops, would do that sort of 'sighing, resigned' thing, and explain that their vote was a kind of altruism - they were aware (they said) that this vote was against their self-interests, and yes, they'd read/heard that the economic implications meant carnage for the UK but they had to do it anyway.

Absolute madness.

Maybe Ken Livingstone should issue an updated version of his (well worth reading) "If voting changed anything they'd abolish it."

I do wish London - and the Mayor - had the powers they had under Ken Livingstone.

thecatfromjapan sorry to hear about your suffering I know it must feel like a personal attack on you from everyone who voted leave. But I really do believe that in the majority leavers voted the way they did because of their personal circumstances whether rich, middle class or working class without really thinking too deeply about others in society. After all that's what most people do. Vote for what they perceive will make their lives better. There are those that are racists etc and there are those with a social consciousness who vote to improve things for all. That's why I don't think I you should dwell on it being a personal attack.
I too am severely ill, but that thought never entered my head at the result of the referendum. Shock at the outcome yes, definitely but I hope things do improve for you as every day is a gift even its a hard day.

The thing is - I remember getting quite a hefty pamphlet through my letter box from the remain campaign. It had lots of (dirty word alert) experts in it, telling me why they believed we were better off in the EU. They were a broad church of experts as well - CEOs, politicians, academics, scientists etc all explaining their position (the one name I remember being included was Richard Branson - but there were lots).

On the leave side there was Boris Johnson and his bus, and Nigel Farage. Much like climate change deniers vs climate change realists - they were unable to equal the amount or calibre of experts that the remain campaign boasted. Leading to the quote from everyone's favourite evil woodland sprite 'the people have had enough of experts'.

If you're no fan of UKIP and you find yourself, in any debate, on the side of Nigel Fucking Farage then it's time to take a step back and analyse your argument. That's not to say he couldn't ever be right on any issue, but being the man he is it would definitely be worth going over what you believe and why when you find yourself agreeing with him. And when it came to leave - there was no substantial argument to go over and analyse. There is still no substantial argument.

So on the one side we had expert analysis posted through our letterboxes - and on the other we had hot air spouted by bigots and chancers in an attempt to appeal to people's most base feelings of nationalism. I find the idea that it was too hard to make an informed decision frankly baffling.

I think Ken Livingstone is a little too busy spreading the word of Hitler right now to worry about whether voting changes anything.

rosetti 2 years ago is not today in my mind. I move on and cope with what's thrown up as it happens. I'm sure we wish we could go back and alter. I still think brexit won't happen, don't know why, maybe disbelief its happening
But you know what? tomorrow's another day with another set of problems/,joys.

I'm not completely bonkers, you know.

I don know these people didn't know me when they voted.

I'm trying to convey why the anger is real, and legitimate. Why the harm isn't abstract.

It was most clear, I think, in the rise in racism. I overheard many conversations here in London between non-UK born Londoners discussing how vulnerable they felt - working to articulate why the vote felt personal.

Ignorance is no shame. I will happily admit I am ignorant of much more than I would claim not to be. Indeed, ignorance, is our natural state.

Absolutely. That's why I found it important to make the distinction.

pretzel many people did not and still do not TRUST the Tory party no matter how many big fat booklets full of expert information they shove through your letterbox.

I still think brexit won't happen, don't know why, maybe disbelief its happening

DWs view before the referendum, and still now

But you know what? tomorrow's another day with another set of problems/,joys

Maybe having MS and having to take every day as it comes is a factor ?

Anyone who votes alongside the likes of farage, gove and Johnson deserves all they get
But sadly we will ALL suffer...
Even those of us who didn't vote alongside racists, misogynists and fascists

It wasn't a tory party pamphlet. It was a remain campaign pamphlet. Boris is in the tory party. JRM is in the tory party. Liam Fox is in the tory party. David Davis is in the tory party. Michael Gove in in the tory party.

The remain campaign spread across the political spectrum and was non-partisan.

As was the leave campaign.

But one of those campaigns boasted experts.

If someone didn't know that that's not because they were being 'misinformed'. It's because they weren't listening.

If someone didn't know that that's not because they were being 'misinformed'. It's because they weren't listening.

None as blind as those that won't see, as my DM would have said.

Well forgive me what I should have said no one trusted Cameron who I think was a remainer ( waits to be shot down yet again,). That hopefully will satisfy