Westminstenders: Break Up or Make Up?

[RedToothBrush]

The next week or so appears to be yet another crunch point (not that any of these crunch points have actually resolved anything so far).

The EU is set to outline the plan for Ireland. Which everyone thought had already been outlined and agreed already. And it had been admitted was legally binding.

Except apparently we don't want to do that, and we are now crying about how the EU want to break up Britain (nothing to do with England wanting to leave the EU and Scotland and NI wanting to stay in it of course).

Jeremy Corbyn has now apparently decided that the customs union is a good idea. David Davis and Liam Fox have responded by saying that this would stop us making our own trade deals. Yes this has obviously stopped Turkey, and why aren't we doing as much trade with China etc as Germany anyway? A vote in the HoC looms before Easter. Will Tory rebels support.

Will Jeremy Corbyn bow to pressure over the single market too? The customs union alone does not stop the border issue in Ireland. Nor does it stop ridiculous queues at Dover. I'm not sure Corbyn is one for listening though. He's got a whiff of power and democracy and reality is just a hindrance to utopia.

As for the Great Repeal Bill. Word has it, its not going too clever in the HoL. The conservatives had something of a show of strength with an unusual number turning up for the debate. But few on the backbenches were willing to speak in favour of...

It all feels like we are making no progress at all. We are still bleating on about cherry picked deals as if this is a negotiation. Its not.

Happy women's day everyone

Quite. Unfortunately my day began reading a telegraph interview with Justine about male investor attitudes directed towards her when starting up this site. It included a specific reference to a "German" investor which, given the DTs divisive, xenophobic and myopic attitude attitude to the EU and all things Brexit, made me feel rather nauseous and disappointed, possibly because I founded the UK branch of a "mainland EU" based business during the same period and found the UK business environment to fall way behind (both in attitudes to females and innovation in general).

I'm perhaps being oversensitive to it. I certainly hope so.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/business/told-didnt-look-part-funding-gap-preventing-millions-women/

The people voted and they decided. The government have to see it through.

Sorry no. In a country of 60 million, a small majority of those voting expressed a preference for Leave. We decided nothing. There was no question on the ballot of leaving the Customs Union and Single market. No question about leaving Euratom, for just three. Theresa May decided that she must appease her extreme right wing, but they, for all their noise and money do not represent 'the people'. May could and IMO ought to have said that the result was close, that she would set up a cross party commission to review the options and then publish the results. Then perhaps we could have had a proper referendum on a genuine question.

I think it was David Allen Green who said the UK would spend five years trying to get out and another five trying to get back in.
I know someone said that in the summer of 2016 in the London Review of Books. I don't remember if he was the author of the article. So far, it's come to pass. We are losing the EMA and EBA, definitely. In return we are definitely getting blue passports, which we could have had anyway. Trade deals? No sign yet. Money for the NHS - 'go whistle'.

We have the LRB too Peregrina so you may well be right. 😊

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling said in January that he is confident flights will not be grounded because ‘it’s in the interests of everyone’ to maintain the open market for aviation.

Er, didn't we hear this about German car manufacturers - they need us as much as we need them?

One thing which puzzles me about Ryanair - isn't it headquartered in RoI, so it won't be affected by the UK leaving the EU?

There might be 60 mill people in this country who had a vote. Most chose not to vote in the referendum, but those that did vote voted to leave. No matter what your arguments might be about why they voted who voted, the I.Q of those that voted to leave the brexiteers got more votes end of story.
If the government do not act on that vote then this us not a democratic society. I don't bloody well care that there are others who don't like the outcome, I'm not enamoured with the result myself, but the government are damned if they do and damned if they don't act on that vote.

Not that I fly Ryanair but I think O'Leary is pointing out that all the flights to/from the UK will be affected as the UK will then no longer be covered by Open Skies/EASA.

Flights between EU countries by EU based companies (and other countries with whom the EU has agreements) will be OK.

I seem to recall that that meant - in theory unless a last minute fudge is agreed - that all commercial flights in/out of the UK would be grounded

that all commercial flights in/out of the UK would be grounded
yup prettybird

Wasn't there a plot line in "The Americans" where they had to assassinate a middle Eastern bigwig with a nerve gas spray ??? They did it when he was swimming for it to look like a heart attack induced drowning ?

Sorry no. In a country of 60 million, a small majority of those voting expressed a preference for Leave. We decided nothing.

What leaving the EU meant was never defined or decided. It was a meaningless question.

The real question was ' Do you want to :
1.maintain the status quo;or
2.explore other options. '

It should have been expressed in that way as that was the true meaning.

We now have been catapulted into doing something which was undefined, and largely because of the self imposed red lines, completely catastrophic.

I can't link, but in the discussion following the Welsh piece I posted upthread, there was a definite mood shift. It was quite funny and (I think) possibly a foreshadowing.

Basically, a lot of (presumably Welsh) Leavers/Brexiteers commented that "this is not what I voted for" which was robustly rebutted by Remainers saying "yes it was, suck it up" at which point - with no sense of irony whatsoever - the Breixteers really went hissy.

Just a microcosm, but a distinct sense of fear and loathing from Leaver.

A democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy.

If DD can understand that it can't be that hard a concept to grasp.

If we went round constantly changing a democratic vote just to suit our own perceived right decision then society would really be in a mess. And don't keep insulting my point of view by comparing me with a child just because you dont like my opinion, there's no need for that.

Society is in a mess.

DD is David Davis, as anyone who apparently frequents these threads as often as you claim will know
Nice try though.

Yes it is lonelyplanetmum but that's not due to brexit. That's due to people wanting their own way, wanting more than anyone else, thinking they are better than anyone else, thinking and acting as though they have more rights than anyone else, more intelligent than anyone else. More worthy than anyone else, their opinions are the right opinions and everyone else is wrong etc etc etc. Its a worldwide illness that will eventually destroy us.

If we went round constantly changing a democratic vote just to suit our own perceived right decision then society would really be in a mess

Except we have general elections at least every five years.

By your "logic" why bother after the first ?

Apologies then in order for the child comparison dobby as I've been on a parenting thread previous I jumped before I wrote ( my excuse) but I still stand by my opinion.

I'm another who is trying to establish EU citizenship through other routes. I'm also beyond angry and worried sick. Literally. I'm now on anti anxiety meds and sleeping meds because of it.

I'm mostly worried for my DD. She'll be graduating next year but may not have any right to work here. But if she goes back to the UK she won't have the right to have her professional qualification recognised. So she could be up the creek either way.

Yes Rossetti we do, but then we don't go about trying to change that decision before the next democratic vote I.e a general election.

of those that voted to leave the brexiteers got more votes end of story.

whatever the voter understanding of the question, on the spectrum between 100% voting leave and 100% voting remain, 52% actually means a vote to be a little bit out.

Treating it as a binary decision means treating it as 100% leave = hard brexit, which must be wrong.

cameron stuffed the country by immediately accepting this as a vote for 100% out, the time to make the case for analysis of "what the vote meant" was immediately after the result. May had a very small window to make the same case but wasted it with the brexit means brexit nonsense.

As it is we are in the state where we need the govt to 'fess up and say 'sorry we've made a bit of a mess, we need to stop the clock until we know what we/you want'

Given they'll never do that it'll be a collapse and the next govt can then say 'it's a mess - we'll stop the clock and....'

Ah. Got to love a bit of irony eh? Especially on people and their opinions.

DG yep, Whigs would still be in iirc. Well not remember. Im not that old, though thanks to brexit I think I feel it

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3188349-Westministenders-One-for-the-Women?watched=1
New Thread

if a government is tied to something that increasingly looks as if its not in the interests of its citizens
AND
public support for it, is slowly waning, with every suggestion that in 5 years time because of the demographics there will be a sizeable majority who think leaving is a bad idea
AND
its looking like being out of the EU will look a lot like being in the EU without influence because practically geography, trade and mutual interest are tied so closely together
AND
being out will cost us a huge amount

At what point does the mandate for Brexit run out? Mandates do have a shelf life.

When do the government step up to the plate and acknowledge this?

Democracy is about keeping talking and listening and assessing a situation. Not about the result on a single day in the past.

So sorry to hear about that mimp

mim I hope everything works out for your DD.