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Brexit

Westminstenders: Break Up or Make Up?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2018 07:53

The next week or so appears to be yet another crunch point (not that any of these crunch points have actually resolved anything so far).

The EU is set to outline the plan for Ireland. Which everyone thought had already been outlined and agreed already. And it had been admitted was legally binding.

Except apparently we don't want to do that, and we are now crying about how the EU want to break up Britain (nothing to do with England wanting to leave the EU and Scotland and NI wanting to stay in it of course).

Jeremy Corbyn has now apparently decided that the customs union is a good idea. David Davis and Liam Fox have responded by saying that this would stop us making our own trade deals. Yes this has obviously stopped Turkey, and why aren't we doing as much trade with China etc as Germany anyway? A vote in the HoC looms before Easter. Will Tory rebels support.

Will Jeremy Corbyn bow to pressure over the single market too? The customs union alone does not stop the border issue in Ireland. Nor does it stop ridiculous queues at Dover. I'm not sure Corbyn is one for listening though. He's got a whiff of power and democracy and reality is just a hindrance to utopia.

As for the Great Repeal Bill. Word has it, its not going too clever in the HoL. The conservatives had something of a show of strength with an unusual number turning up for the debate. But few on the backbenches were willing to speak in favour of...

It all feels like we are making no progress at all. We are still bleating on about cherry picked deals as if this is a negotiation. Its not.

OP posts:
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woman11017 · 07/03/2018 10:01

Nuclear power station strike.

Workers at the massive nuclear job downed-tools after not getting paid over the weekend when the site was shut due to heavy snow

Many workers are not local and stayed near the site rather than returning home

The protesters are employed by the Kier/BAM Nuttall joint venture carrying out civils work on the site and the action was continuing Wednesday morning

EDF is refusing to pay the weekend pay even though people stayed local ready to work. There are about 500 of us

Asked how long the strike was expected to last, the worker said: “Until they pay us.”

Another worker said: “This is not an organised, union-backed strike. We have withdrawn our labour because we are at the end of our tether

www.constructionenquirer.com/2018/03/06/500-hinkley-construction-workers-stage-canteen-sit-in/

Not reported in other media, because a non unionised sit in at a nuclear power station is not a security threat?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 07/03/2018 10:31

If you were prepared to protest against Donald Trump, why aren't you protesting against Mohammed bin Salman?

www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-mohammed-bin-salman-uk-visit-protests-saudi-arabia-crown-prince-yemen-bombing-a8242251.html

Britain is well and truly rolling out the red carpet for Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia this week. The so-called reformer and de facto leader of his country won’t just meet our Prime Minister and other top officials tomorrow. He’ll be treated to dinner with the royals at Windsor as he looks to strike up deals diplomats say could be worth more than $100bn (£72bn). Someone’s even put mysterious “welcome” advertisements for the Prince alongside the M4 for the drive into London from Heathrow.

The reasons for the visit are clear. Saudi Arabia is trying to both project a new image of moderation to the world, and also build upon the deep trade and business ties that already exist with the UK. The planned initial public offering of state energy giant Saudi Aramco is expected to come up in discussions, with the London Stock Exchange competing with New York and Hong Kong for a potential overseas listing by the company.

Britain’s relationship with Saudi Arabia has increased in importance since the Government decided to end free trade with our closest neighbours. Now they’re desperate to deepen ties with non-EU countries willing to buy our goods and services. The UK already sells the Saudis billions of pounds worth of military hardware – and the Government wants them to up their orders.

Behind the smiles and handshakes on show tomorrow, and despite Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s attempts to be a poster boy for progress, there are some uncomfortable truths about his repressive government that must not be forgotten.

Life inside Saudi Arabia is brutal, with floggings and executions commonplace and elected government a distant dream. The country exports suffering, too. Their military intervention in Yemen’s civil war has led to thousands of civilian deaths and famine. According to Amnesty International, the Saudi attacks appear to have “deliberately targeted civilians and civilian objects such as hospitals, schools, markets and mosques”. Mohammed bin Salman hasn’t been a bystander in these attacks – he has overseen the three-year bombing campaign since day one.

And it’s not just Yemenis who have suffered at the hands of Saudi Arabian brutality. There’s also evidence to suggest Saudi Arabia has backed extremist Islamist groups wreaking terror across the world. The Saudis’ links with Isis, for example, are made plain in emails leaked from the office of Hillary Clinton, US Secretary of State from 2009 to 2013. They might be considered a close ally by Downing Street, but they’re also accused of aiding and abetting those who seek to harm us.

The record of the Saudi regime – and Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s role – make it clear to me that he should never have been offered the trappings of this visit. I was one of those who stood against a state visit for Donald Trump, but the case against this Saudi royal trip is even stronger.

No one is saying we should cut diplomatic ties entirely, or assume that Saudi Arabia will never change. It is the height of folly to refuse to speak with those whom you disagree with – and the positive, if very small, steps forward in Saudi domestic policy are indeed welcome. We’re simply demanding the terms of our relationship, and the lavishness of our welcome, are not set by the military industrial complex, or the British Government’s desperate desire to strike trade deals as we head towards Brexit.

Instead of falling over ourselves to appease Saudi Arabia, we should reset our relationship on equal footing, by ending all arms sales to the regime. Such a move isn’t easy because the arms industry exists at the nexus between our country’s industrial and foreign policies. Changing course isn’t just a foreign policy decision; it affects our industrial strategy too. That’s why we must accompany the end of arms exports to repressive regimes with a 21st-century industrial policy, which turns jobs in the industry into employment for the future.

Tory MPs are increasingly desperate to sling mud at political opponents for their relationships with foreign regimes, but it’s about time they got their own house in order. We should be in no doubt that the arms sales that may be agreed this week could feed wars and repression in the future – and as such we should be banning those sales for our own security as much as anything else.

Tomorrow, people will gather outside Downing Street demanding this Government ends its cosy embrace of the head-choppers of Riyadh. The message is clear: British diplomacy shouldn’t compromise on human rights, nor should it bend to the will of arms manufacturers.

At this most crucial time, Britain should send a signal to the world: we won’t roll out the red carpet for dangerous men who refuse to comply with at least the minimum standards of decency towards their fellow human beings.

Alex Andreou
‏*@sturdyAlex*
.@EmilyThornberry: we shouldn’t sell arms to countries who use them against civilians in breach of international law. @MishalHusainBBC: “There are 55k jobs linked to arms exports. Are you prepared for that number to be decimated by the sort of stance you advocate?” Wow. #r4today

This is one of those things that I hear, but it registers with a sort of delay. Because my brain is going: surely, I didn’t just hear that. And I bet the journo thinks it’s “rigour”, to try to “nail” a politician for saying we shouldn’t be selling the means to murder civilians.

And in the next breath, some BBC reporter will be outraged at the NRA’s position in the US. “How unreasonable! Children are being shot. Stop selling weapons to irresponsible owners.” When, in fact, the UK is doing the same in the Middle East, and on a grander scale. UGH

GaspodeWonderCat · 07/03/2018 10:55

Why are Russian threats seen as less scary than terrorist attacks?

Cold war, nuclear threat (remember duck and cover), 1950-1980s. Warships and war planes up channel or off the coast. A threat we grew up with and survived, with help from NATO, USA, EU etc. A country (Russia) the UK could not go to war with and have a cats chance in hell of winning. If you have no hope of beating them on your own then just ignore them or minimise the threat. No threat to me or mine - just a.n. others - so ignore/minimise/gloss over. Boris won't send the royals to the world cup. Sure they are delighted ...

But terrorist threats from 'small' nations or groups - well we can beat them. Send the SAS/Marines/Navy/RAF/Army/ Boy scouts/girl guides - whoever- and show Johnny Forriner that Engerland is not to be messed with. Much beating of the chest and showing what we are made of. Fact it achieves the square root of zero is irrelevant.

Just some musings of mine.

thecatfromjapan · 07/03/2018 11:51

Yes. the combined news about Russia and the US just makes me realise how weak the UK is outside the EU. Sad

I was up late last night and watched the BBC late night news, which covered MPs raising just those issues in Parliament. Asking about the UK's position if we leave the EU, asking about Russian investment in the property market, asking about the failure to prosecute earlier attacks on Russian ex-nationals. You'd never guess that was a concern great enough to generate MPs questions from the mainstream, prime-time news coverage, though.

It's all a bit depressing.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 07/03/2018 12:14

gaspode interestingly, Browder (sorry to keep bringing him up but he's fresh on my mind from the committee hearing!) said that the Kremlin is so corrupted and has abused the economy with its kleptocracy to such an extent that there's no hope really of it being able to win an actual war with the West, or even to grow its economy to match its rivals, and that they instead are seeking to bring the rest of the world down to their level by attacking the blocs such as the EU and NATO as it's much easier to pick off vulnerable countries than it is larger coalitions.

And because they don't want a physical war (there was a skirmish recently between private Russian forces and the US army in Syria where the US army thoroughly beat the Russian forces), they seek to cause mayhem and undermine democracies through different means - through gas supplies, infiltrating officials in different countries, creating economic leverage over people, the internet - that are relatively low cost and can be denied so it doesn't escalate into a war that they can't win.

Sostenueto · 07/03/2018 12:14

There was a Great Britain before the EU formed and there will still be one when we leave (sigh)

thecatfromjapan · 07/03/2018 12:19

The other issue with Russia is that there is no internal constituency to which the executive is answerable that can keep such attacks in check. If you compare US/UK interference in other political systems, there was an internal constituency that complained. I think it's important to bear that in mind because there really does seem to be one response emerging along the lines of: 'Oh well. All countries do this.'

That's quite cynical, defeatist, and it ignores some quite major differences.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 07/03/2018 12:24

It also means that our reactions are slow as they go through due process and theirs are not - they can change tack and try out new strategies without oversight or accountability. But Browder (sorry) was confident that once we had caught up and found ways to combat it, as we are starting to do - albeit very slowly - we would be able to overcome any challenges they posed.

thecatfromjapan · 07/03/2018 12:28
Grin

And thanks for the link to the Trump thread. I couldn't find it at all last night.

lonelyplanetmum · 07/03/2018 12:36

Re Saudi

I thought this list was interesting. It's only Wiki but an accurate list. It shows May's priorities. Saudi twice plus a visit here. That's 3.
USA x 3. Bahrain, Jordan.

But that will not replace what we are losing and are they better bed fellows?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ListoffinternationalprimeeministerialtripssmadebyyTheresa_May

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 07/03/2018 12:44

Saudi Arabia has also been involved in the Trump chaos/corruption. Kushner asked Qatar for a loan to pay the mortgage on his 666 Fifth Avenue property and when they declined, he altered the US foreign policy to punish them with support from Saudi Arabia.

From NBC:

In the weeks after Kushner Companies' talks with the Qatari government and HBJ collapsed, the White House strongly backed an economically punishing blockade against Qatar, led by Saudi Arabia and the UAE, citing the country's support for terrorism as the impetus. Kushner, who is both President Donald Trump's son-in-law and a key adviser, has played a major role in Trump's Middle East policy and has developed close relationships with the crown princes of Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

Some top Qatari government officials believe the White House's position on the blockade may have been a form of retaliation driven by Kushner who was sour about the failed deal, according to multiple people familiar with the matter. Saudi Arabia and UAE have long had a rivalry with Qatar.

MimpiDreams · 07/03/2018 12:48

Well here's a surprise, the EU have completely rejected Theresa May's future trade proposals. Never saw that one coming.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-trade-plan-rejected-eu-donald-tusk-uk-relations-latest-updates-a8243721.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook

lonelyplanetmum · 07/03/2018 12:49

Quelled surprise.

lonelyplanetmum · 07/03/2018 12:49

Quelle !

lonelyplanetmum · 07/03/2018 12:51

Or actually it appears TM's plans are quelled!

woman11017 · 07/03/2018 12:52

I won't repeat what Saudi regime to this 17yr old child Ali Mohammed Baqir al-Nimr it is too awful.

And Turkey pain ; she made a bee line for Erdogan as soon as they had that poll result. May does love these regimes.

corrupted and has abused the economy
It's the same size as Italy? Is that the Browder, James O'Brien references on his programme: do you recommend any articles/ books by him?

Interesting stuff thank you.

thecatfromjapan · 07/03/2018 12:57

I do think our media should stop playing the ridiculous game, with regard to Teresa May's speeches.

Everyone knows they are empty puff pieces, insubstantial, and designed for a home audience that should - by now - be quite inured to them. And it was pretty clear to everyone - and the media definitely - that the insubstantial fluff was going to be rejected.

We deserve a media that states this as part of the reporting, or at least doesn't treat these speeches as a headline, serious thing.

By reporting that speech in any way other than analysed for what it it, the media becomes complicit in what is essentially a PR stunt - a means of letting the UK government wriggle off the hook, blaming the EU for 'rejecting' proposals, and a ridiculous 'spin' to deflect from the true seriousness of the situation (eg. it's increasingly clear that Brexit is hugely damaging and the government cannot deliver a non-damaging Brexit). That is the only real story here - and it needs hammering home, again and again and again, until everyone, even the unwilling, hear it.

thecatfromjapan · 07/03/2018 13:00

The big story with all of this (Saudi, Trump, Russia) is how very, very insecure and vulnerable Brexit will make the UK, and is currently making the UK.

These stories need linking up and analysing - in simple language - on prime time television.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 07/03/2018 13:14

Yes, Turkey too. And Poland, even though the rest of the EU rightly thought the new powers to allow the Polish government to replace the judiciary with people of their choosing at will and reopen old cases for no reason were cause for alarm and sought to take action against Poland. But why let a thing like a slide to authoritarianism get in the way of any potential allies?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 07/03/2018 13:22

I think it is the same Browder. He's so interesting because it was his campaigning after the murder of his lawyer - Sergei Magnitsky - in prison, who had tried to shed light on the Russian corruption Browder discovered, that lead to Western countries punishing Russia economically for its corruption and human rights abuses and resulted in the Magnitsky Act, which in turn is what the Kremlin are trying to reverse (aided by Trump & co - the "pro quo" to Trump's "quid" of getting elected).

I heard him on a radio 4 programme very movingly about how he felt obliged to seek justice for Magnitsky's death because he felt responsible for it, but the programme was awhile ago so won't be on catch up. He's done a podcast with JOB that might be worth a listen (I haven't heard all of it)

www.joe.co.uk/entertainment/unfiltered-with-james-obrien-episode-7-bill-browder-150266

woman11017 · 07/03/2018 13:23

Great thank you Pain

thecatfromjapan · 07/03/2018 13:31

It's actually amazing to see Trump acting just in the way you would imagine a Russian asset to act, isn't it? I'm sure it's all more complicated than that - but still. Amazing.

howabout · 07/03/2018 13:36

Someone should really rap the Indie's knuckles. Euroclear is already HQ'd in Belgium and tax resident in Switzerland. It is setting up an additional Holding Co. in Belgium ie lodging a bit of paperwork.....so NONE rather than the implied 80k job and tax losses in the Indie article.

www.globalcustodian.com/euroclear-relocate-holding-company-london-brussels/

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 07/03/2018 13:39

thecat I don’t actually think it is more complicated than that.