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Brexit

Westminstenders: Stuck in the twilightzone

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2018 23:37

Just want to remind everyone if what really matters and what the priority if Theresa May is.

May isn't interested in a new referendum. There is barely time to hold one, and anyone remotely interested in one, isn't named Theresa May. Forget it. Its not happening.

Nor are Brexit talks the most important thing. Whilst Jeremy Corbyn seems finally to be playing with some sort if EEA type solution he's not the one named Theresa May. If she doesn't want one, then it won't happen.

May does seem to favour something along these lines but she has to sell it to her party. If she ends up relying on the support of Labour to push it through against what her party want, then that doesn't end well for her or her party. So Corbyn seeming to squeeze her here isn't necessarily a good thing. It could push her to no deal.

Why?

Cos petty party politics.

THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING, and don't forget this, is the EU withdrawal Bill. As it stands, May has to concentrate her efforts on this. If it doesn't pass by the art 50 deadline then we have legal chaos. May isn't big on the courts, but I'm not sure she would want that situation either. It would be even more unthinkable than queues at Dover coupled with food shortages.

If it doesn't pass, and the Lords will do all they can to delay and obstruct as long as they can, May's only option is to beg for an art 50 extension. Which the EU might not be inclined to give. Which might leave us in a situation where our only option is to revoke a50.

The only predictable thing, is this will be last minute brinkmanship.

All the talk of a second ref is a distraction. Talk of Labour's position at this point, is all about positioning for the next election and not about Brexit at all.

So try to keep your eyes on what really matters and what battles are May's big ones and which are merely side shows.

I wonder who Side Show Bob will turn out to be.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 22/01/2018 11:14

www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/what-are-human-rights/human-rights-act/article-6-right-fair-trial
Article 6 Right to a fair trial

Note number one:

1) There must be real and effective access to a court (although there are limited exceptions in the case of vexatious litigants, minors, prisoners etc). To be real and effective this may require access to legal aid.

Oh the shock.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 22/01/2018 11:15

And

4) The applicant must have a real opportunity to present his or her case or challenge the case against them. This will require access to an opponent’s submissions, procedural equality and generally requires access to evidence relied on by the other party and an oral hearing.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 22/01/2018 11:24

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/forensic-science-cuts-miscarriages-justice-risk-increase-watchdog-warning-funding-wrong-convictions-a8167531.html

Falling standards could lead to innocent people being wrongly convicted or criminals walking free, says regulator

Cuts to forensic science work are increasing the risk of miscarriages of justice, an official watchdog has warned.

Innocent people could be wrongly convicted or criminals could walk free if crucial evidence is missed due to falling standards in the sector, said Forensic Science Regulator Gillian Tully.

Police forces are spending less on in-house forensic practices, while outsourcing is driving “more and more money” out of the system, she added.

Dr Tully detailed how scientists have been required to give expert advice based on interim forensic reports because some police forces have refused to pay for them to produce statements of evidence that can be admitted in court.

In her annual report, she said: “A year ago I warned that funding was too tight, and now even more money has been taken out of the system. We cannot continue on this path.”

Financial pressures on both commercial and government-funded organisations have eroded the time available for professional development, the regulator added.

She called on the government to put her role on a statutory footing so she can ensure all bodies providing forensic science evidence in the criminal justice system meet the required high standards.

Dr Tully said: “My concern is there was no fat in the system as it was.

“The more pressure you put on people, the less time they have to spend on their actual work, the more you raise the risk of errors.

“The worst case is that there are miscarriages of justice, either through the wrong person being convicted or through justice being denied to somebody because, for example, the evidence wasn’t found when it should have been.”

Techniques including analysis of DNA, fingerprints and digital evidence play a major role in a range of criminal investigations.

The publicly owned Forensic Science Service, which previously provided police with the majority of such work, was controversially closed by Conservative ministers in 2012.

Many forces now outsource large volumes of casework to commercial laboratories, some of which are unaccredited and have no oversight.
Dr Tully warned some forces have also missed the deadlines to achieve standards in their own in-house forensic science practices, leading to a lack of independent assurance on the quality of the work.

She said: “Whilst it is understandable that senior police leaders have a wide range of priorities, if quality of forensic science provision is of insufficient priority to enable risks to be managed effectively and quality standards to be achieved, the logical result is that it will become unsustainable for any forensic services to be managed within some police forces.”

Her report noted that progress has been made in the sector, with many organisations either meeting required quality standards or “well on their way” to doing so.

But some forensic practices have opted not to work towards the standards required for accreditation.

"Without statutory backing for my role, a number of small and micro-businesses have chosen, for financial reasons, not to move towards gaining accreditation and those that have met the quality standards have not yet been fully rewarded through the contracting process," Dr Tully said.

“Those not moving towards compliance should be in no doubt that their services will gradually receive fewer commissions and their practitioners will face more challenges in court.”

A Home Office spokeswoman said: “It is for Chief Constables and Police and Crime Commissioners to decide how best to deploy resources to effectively manage crime and local priorities, including forensic services.
“However, we are clear that cost savings must not come at the expense of a reduction in quality standards.”

She added that the government was committed to putting the regulator on a statutory footing “at the earliest opportunity”.

National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for forensics Debbie Simpson said: “As with much of policing, Chief Constables are being forced to make difficult decisions about how they utilise their limited resources, but we remain completely committed to meeting the requirements of accreditation and further improving confidence in the criminal justice system.

“Forces continue to develop in-house solutions and work with the private sector to deliver the highest possible quality of forensic services, and while some have not yet met the deadline for accreditation I am confident that they are fully committed to doing so.”

DGRossetti · 22/01/2018 11:25

Looks like the justice system is going the way of the education and health system.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2018 11:49

I keep saying this to myself when I read such alarming Westministender posts:

Thank fuck I emigrated
Literally right after the referendum, changed all my life plans

< Dunno what UK Westministenders are planning Hmm >

youcanonlylaugh · 22/01/2018 12:02

. But BigChocFrenzy isn't life in Germany also getting more and more difficult in terms of cutting public seining, crime rates especially in the bigger cities, and mass immigration without integration. Schools really struggling for money, again especially in bigger cities, have heard schools in Berlin are falling apart and universities overcrowded and inefficient. I don't mean this at all conformationally (though I appreciate it may come across this way) but do you perhaps have rose tinted glasses in terms of how great things are going in Germany because you are a recent immigrant working in a privileged academic environment? I guess what i am trying to say is that Germany is also facing enormous social and political challenges, in what way is it so much better there? Brew Cake

BiglyBadgers · 22/01/2018 12:05

Most people aren't in a position to emigrate. We could once I have qualified, but it would mean leaving my dad and I am reluctant to leave him to the mercies of a failing health system to be honest. I imagine we will do what most people will have to. Sit it out, try and change things where we can and hope for the best in the end. Thankfully I have a lot more faith in the next generation to do a better job than I do in the current contingent who are pretending to be in charge.

mrsreynolds · 22/01/2018 12:08

Ugh
Spent an hour arguing with idiots on FB last night
Someone posted a benefits bashing meme so I reported it. Turns out it was an admin that posted it and of course loads of people piled in m me that the post is correct and too many people are on benefits and have iPhones /big TVs etc
I posted some actual stats - no reply
I asked how many of them 65 people in our village who are unemployed this applies to - no reply
I pointed out benefit fraud is 0.25% - no reply
They just aren’t interested in facts
It’s all about how their auntie Brenda lives next to someone who has never worked and drives a bmw.
Why? Why do I water my time?
Argh...

mrsreynolds · 22/01/2018 12:09

I am also putting all my faith in my sons generation...

DGRossetti · 22/01/2018 12:10

Thankfully I have a lot more faith in the next generation to do a better job than I do in the current contingent who are pretending to be in charge.

It's concerning that as we march into the future, the demographic split between Remain and Leave will tip to make Leavers a minority in the absence of any other shifts.

BiglyBadgers · 22/01/2018 12:15

Also there is a certain amount of me that feels I have benefited from the good times and I therefore now have some sort of obligation to pay that back. Although I am just about in the millennial age range I grabbed the coattails of better times. I had no problems getting decent work when I left education at 17 and it never crossed my mind I would be without a job if I went out and looked for one. There was always data entry or envelope stuffing temp jobs if nothing else.

I did have a student loan for my first degree, but it was small by comparison to what you get now and I benefited from more generous terms for people classed as independent students. I also caught the end of decent pay and plentiful jobs in the public sector before they started getting serious on the lay offs and temp contracts allowing me to be able to buy a flat.

It feels a bit off to just drop everything and run as soon as the sun goes in, leaving the young and the poor to carry the can and clear up the shit. I know things can be better and I did OK because I was lucky enough to be born when I was. I feel I should at least try and make things better again even if it is a small and futile gesture.

BiglyBadgers · 22/01/2018 12:16

Sorry, I realise that was all very fluffy and sentimental. Blush

HashiAsLarry · 22/01/2018 12:24

I'd love to run, but dh is so inert. I think he wants to stay near ils too, mil recently was quite ill and I think that's made him want to cleave to her a bit more which is fair enough I suppose.

I'm just pre millennial and have watched everything I had and took for granted slowly disappear. Didnt notice some of it until I had my DC. There's a real lack of understanding in a lot of the previous generation I think in that their kids had it relatively easy but ours won't. My family struggle to understand why I wouldn't press my DC to go to uni (other than they're still in infant school), because that's what we did. Well it was largely free for me. It won't be free for them. I wouldn't stop them if they wanted to but I don't want them to feel obligated to go either.

If I'm stuck here then I want to get out there and fight to get some of it back. It may be small, it may seem pointless, but it's something I suppose. Hopefully my DC will learn from that.

DGRossetti · 22/01/2018 12:25

Now available from

www.markthomasinfo.co.uk/store/

(Looking forward to the next show)

Also in the back of our car Smile

Westminstenders: Stuck in the twilightzone
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 22/01/2018 12:26

I think it’s very commendable bigly. So many people pull the ladder up behind them, which is quite a prevalent dynamic in Brexit (see that survey where more people said they’d object to Brexit if it meant longer queues at the airport than those that objected to it when told their children would face bleaker economic futures).

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 22/01/2018 12:43

Five senior Ukip figures quit in protest at Henry Bolton's refusal to resign as leader

amp.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jan/22/brexit-tory-mps-oppose-compromises-likely-to-be-involved-in-brexit-transition-deal-survey-suggests-politics-live?__twitter_impression=true

Mistigri · 22/01/2018 12:48

But BigChocFrenzy isn't life in Germany also getting more and more difficult in terms of cutting public seining, crime rates especially in the bigger cities, and mass immigration without integration. Schools really struggling for money, again especially in bigger cities, have heard schools in Berlin are falling apart and universities overcrowded and inefficient.

BigChoc can respond on the question of life in Germany, but as a more general point, the right wing press and alt-right social media have spent years presenting Europe as dysfunctional when the reality is not that simple.

You see this all the time in disinformation about for e.g. Macron's supposed unpopularity (in fact his popularity is improving, and I imagine it will continue to do so while the economy grows and he quietly gets on with implementing the manifesto he was elected on) and French unemployment (yes, it's too high, but the figures that are widely quoted on the right are often very misleading).

I live in France by the way - there is much that is wrong, but also many things that are good, especially in public services: the health service being the most obvious example, but most of our recent contacts with bureaucracy have been positive (e.g. my son's French nationality procedure took a record breaking two weeks from submitting the documents to receiving a certificate of nationality). We are also broadly happy with the education system, although I can see its faults.

Mistigri · 22/01/2018 12:50

That has to be the end of UKIP. You can't run a political party like a Facebook group; sooner or later it will implode.

BiglyBadgers · 22/01/2018 13:01

Just to add to misti's very interesting post. I have never heard anyone claim that any country has got it all right. Nobody is saying the EU is perfect and that Germany and France are some sort of promised land. Every country has its issues and problems.

The difference with the UK right now is that we currently seem to have a Government that is pursuing a concerted policy of dismantling the welfare state and attempting to privatise essential services such as health and education. A Government that is deliberately putting in place policies that demonise and attack the poor and vulnerable. That is continuing to cut services and reduce state support despite clear evident that people are dieing due to these cuts and changes.

This seemingly deliberate nature of the continuing issues in the UK is what makes it different to other countries in the EU right now. I would rather live in a country that isn't perfect, but with a Government that I am confident is trying to improve things than one where the Government seems hell bent on making things worse and worse.

HashiAsLarry · 22/01/2018 13:08

Nothing is ever perfect anywhere, but that doesn't mean somewhere else's imperfect isn't better than our imperfect especially if their imperfect isnt being purposely worsened.

HashiAsLarry · 22/01/2018 13:09

Nothing is ever perfect anywhere, but that doesn't mean somewhere else's imperfect isn't better than our imperfect especially if their imperfect isnt being purposely worsened.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 22/01/2018 13:19

DG Looks like the justice system is going the way of the education and health system.

That ship sailed some time ago.

Did you hear the one about privatising interpreting/translation services in the courts? It went really well, in the sense that we are no longer wasting money on expensive interpreters. Chalk one up to the wonders of efficiency. Let's not worry about the fact that people are getting interpreters who can't actually speak their language when they are on trial. I mean, if they can't speak English well enough to defend themselves, they'll be as guilty as fuck, won't they?

DGRossetti · 22/01/2018 13:37

Did you hear the one about privatising interpreting/translation services in the courts? It went really well, in the sense that we are no longer wasting money on expensive interpreters. Chalk one up to the wonders of efficiency. Let's not worry about the fact that people are getting interpreters who can't actually speak their language when they are on trial. I mean, if they can't speak English well enough to defend themselves, they'll be as guilty as fuck, won't they?

I didn't know foreigners could be innocent anyway ? Fuck interpreting for them. We should add a few years simply for having the nerve to plead not guilty. We certainly shouldn't be wasting precious English (the distinction with Scotland is noted) justice on them.

HashiAsLarry · 22/01/2018 13:44

Sorry for random derail but woman or anyone else who helps or knows about food banks, can I donate tampons that aren't in their boxes any more? I've donated all my boxed ones, but I have a lot in random sizes out of box though still individually wrapped and can't seem to find an answer.

spacegirl2017 · 22/01/2018 14:45

A long time lurker here saying thank you to all posters for these threads which are so important to me in making sense of what is happening atm.

It feels very important to have eyes wide open as to what is happening when the MSM seems to be ignoring or minimising most of it. I feel very powerless but at least knowledge is in itself power.

Re open sanitary products I have noticed that our local library has a basket full of loose products in the toilets so if yours does this could be a place to donate open boxes to.

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