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Brexit

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Westminstenders: Blue Passports

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2017 14:57

Yay for the blue passports.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all

May next year bring us £350 million for the NHS, cake, unicorns, financial passporting, access to the single market, Irish love and of course control to the people.

(Apologies been up to my eyeballs. Normal service will resume after Christmas).

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Thread gallery
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PaulDacreIsStillACunt · 04/01/2018 16:07

Our DS works for a huge Chinese company that has made considerable inroads into the UK. He's in daily contact with businessmen who can (and have) dropped £15,000-£20,000 in a single night at a casino.

He's already picked up an ear for some simple chat, and seems to get on well with his colleagues (being a blondy, they have a superstition of rubbing his hair for good luck).

Word "on the street" is that most Chinese businessmen have very little if any interest in an EU-lite UK, whatever Liam Fox might be dreaming. And that's before the rather jaundiced view they have of western decadence.

DS colleagues who aren't Chinese are all EU nationals ... (his French has become turbocharged).

Chinese culture is big on family, so we've been guests at the company restaurant a couple of times, to much smiling from management.

GaspodeWonderCat · 04/01/2018 16:46

Goes quietly unmentioned in "Sharpe ..." or CS Forester (Hornblower) or Patrick O'Brian (Jack Aubrey).
"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." The man who shot Liberty Valence. John Ford (dir.)

LurkingHusband · 04/01/2018 16:56

John Strafford, chairman of the Campaign for Conservative Democracy, says he has heard two independent reports saying Conservative national membership is now down to 70,000

I predict we'll start hearing calls (again) for political parties to be funded by taxpayers "in the interests of democracy"

And in reference to the discussion about authoritarianism, and acquiescence, I'd like to think that I would rather break that law than follow it.

Cailleach1 · 04/01/2018 17:25

Interesting article on possible impact to Holyhead. I imagine it will affect goods from NI too as a good whack (if not most) go through Dublin to GB. Shortest sea crossing would be through Scotland if Brexit poses difficulties. Infrastructure would have to be increased. For Irl, however onerous the route to avoid GB would be, it may be the easiest option in the long run.

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/holyhead-will-be-one-of-the-biggest-losers-from-brexit-1.3343977

Just as an aside. OH said he read some people were barracked at in Cardiff for not speaking English. They were speaking.......Welsh.

Cailleach1 · 04/01/2018 17:27

Oh and so very well deserved Red. Mumsnet can be a font of information. Or discussion anyway. But these threads are a rope line through a very dodgy era.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 04/01/2018 17:27

Goldman Sachs (and jeff Bezos) is a dog whistle in certain American circles. Is it one here too?

Westminstenders: Blue Passports
Cailleach1 · 04/01/2018 17:41

Think AN will have to wait until the UK actually leaves the EU completely to enjoy the true fruits of his fellow travellers' endeavours. Oh, allegedly his fellow travellers. I'm sure it would be a symptom of my bias if I didn't regard him as being objective and having integrity to go along with that when on air or off .

In the meantime he and his alleged Brexit cronies can enjoy the benefits to the UK economy of being in the EU. As he is happy to point out.

Cailleach1 · 04/01/2018 17:59

twitter.com/caoilfhionnanna/status/946288043522248708

So, 28th December, 1918. This year is the centenary of the first woman elected as an MP to the HOC. Didn't take seat.

RedToothBrush · 04/01/2018 18:04

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-britain-not-ready-for-trade-talks-warns-our-own-commissioner-a3731606.html
Brexit latest: Britain not ready for trade talks, warns our own commissioner

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ElenaGreco123 · 04/01/2018 18:06

I have learnt a lot today here again.

Gin to Red and to all you knowledgeable and thoughtful posters.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 04/01/2018 18:09

I think it’s unlikely that Davidson wouldn’t be elected as Tory leader not for her purported liberalism but due to her Scottishness.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 04/01/2018 18:10

Arrgh at least one too many negatives in that so-called sentence!

BigChocFrenzy · 04/01/2018 19:13

Tory party members tend to be very socially conservative, most hating the last few decades of equality legislation.

They might have to lose a few GEs, after the dominant geriatrics have died off, before the Tory party has a lesbian leader
(unless she is proclaimed / fixed leader by MPs, like May was)

After Blair defeated the Tories in 1997, members went through
. William Hague
. IDS < vomit >
. Michael Howard

before finally turning to Cameron in desperation to be elected. Otherwise, they'd have gone for DD and his hard right policies.

The Tory party has not won a substantial HoC majority since the 1987 GE, over 30 years ago
A Brexit debacle crashing the economy could finish them off

This is what many in the PLP are hoping, not just JC

  • and of course, Labour don't want the poisoned chalice of Brexit either, because whoever gets the blame probably can't be reelected for 20 years or so
HashiAsLarry · 04/01/2018 19:17

I was thinking of posting that her liberalism was probably only a minor issue. Her scottishness and lesbianism being far more problematic.

HashiAsLarry · 04/01/2018 19:17

Not for me obviously. But I'm not a Tory. I hasten to add.

RedToothBrush · 04/01/2018 19:21

Remember that time when Nigel Farage said this:
‘It’s like an unholy trinity going down and desperate to undermine the democratic Brexit vote. Especially so, as Clegg has no mandate. That Michel Barnier is even meeting them shows those in Brussels cannot be trusted in these negotiations at all.’

Well... Farage has got a meeting with Barnier.

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BigChocFrenzy · 04/01/2018 19:24

Part of the Tory hatred of Cameron / Osbourne is that he made them swallow all the social liberalism, environmentalism, foreign aid

  • but then never delivered the thumping HoC majority they wanted in return.

In fact, it looks like Cameron at least stopped the Tory membership sinking to abysmal levels
ffs, even the SNP have 100k members, just in Scotland
so do the LibDems, the clearly #3 UK party

The Tory party membership, even at 140k, was ridiculously low for the govt party of the world's #5/6/7 (whatever it now) economy, which is a Security Council member and a nuclear / military power

70k would make it so vulnerable for takeover, maybe by some of those dark money interests / the fascist right as in the USA GOP

prettybird · 04/01/2018 19:27

....and the fact that she's not an MP, let alone an MP for an English constituency (which because of EVEL, it would need to be Hmm).

But that's not to say if the Conservative Party wanted her to be leader, they couldn't find her a suitable, very safe English seat Hmm

RedToothBrush · 04/01/2018 19:31

Ross Hawkins‏ @rosschawkins
PS subplot to members debate - there's a coming row in Tory party local members being cut out of selections. @ConHome only coverage so far

www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/11/exclusive-draft-new-conservative-party-constitution-revealed.html
EXCLUSIVE: Draft new Conservative Party Constitution revealed – including further candidate selection centralisation

Ross Hawkins @rosschawkins
many Tories unaware/ambivalent & it's v Westminster bubble so didn't make cut this morning, but Cons MPs will need to approve this and there's a small but well motivated and noisy group of grass roots folk with some support in Parl spoiling for a fight with a CCHQ they blame for screwing up election over this

Norman Goldner @nlygo
Candidate selection is the be all and end all for many Party members.

if this is removed or substantially diluted, why join in the first place?

I think I linked to this ConHome previously when it came out in Nov, but I can't remember.

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BigChocFrenzy · 04/01/2018 19:46

The incredible shrinking Britain

Major loss of international "clout" already, with concrete results:

It is noticeable that some EU support has been lost BUT also developing countries - not the economic giants - feel able to take on - and beat - the UK.
Such humiliations should puncture any illusions of "Britannia Unchanged"

The US abandons Britain whenever it suits US interests to do so.
High time that Fox, the Atlantic Bridge gang and most of the UK ruling class, left & right, accepted that
the Special Relationship does not exist on the US side except when they whistle the poodle to do a trick

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-foreign-policy-the-incredible-shrinking-britain/amp/

In June, the U.K. lost a humiliating U.N. General Assembly vote over the Chagos Islands.
London had tried to block an effort by Mauritius to refer a dispute over the islands to the International Court of Justice (ICJ).
In a stone-cold move that would have been unthinkable 18 months ago, several EU and NATO partners chose to abstain, rather than support the U.K.

Then in late November, the U.K. failed to secure a second term for its judge serving in the ICJ, losing against a challenger from India.
Having deemed it “impractical” to exercise its veto against a coalition of developing countries,
the U.K. found itself without a seat on the courtt^ for the first time since it was set up in 1945.

People busy recreating the past rarely have viable ideas for the nation’s future

woman11017 · 04/01/2018 20:05

@MichaelLCrick
John Strafford, chairman of the Campaign for Conservative Democracy, says he has heard two independent reports saying Conservative national membership is now down to 70,000

Some one picked up a bargain last year.

mathanxiety · 04/01/2018 20:13

www.theguardian.com/politics/2002/jan/13/thefarright.observerpolitics

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Ireland
^^ Two parties that have sought to fly the flag of racism, opposition to immigration, and a return to the cozy certainties of the past, with a little help from UKIP.

The comment that many Irish people who have lived in Britain developed similarly right wing views to those of many in the British working classes is spot on in my observation. These would be older voters, many of whom have lived in little Irish cultural bubbles, and who have not gone through the transformative experience of living in Ireland since the 60s or 70s. The Ireland they left has changed beyond recognition but it is very real for them. It may be that clinging to the memory of what they had is a psychological defence against an overwhelming sense of loss - the loss of their families, neighbourhoods, culture and secure sense of identity through emigration, separating their Irish self from the face they use for work and socialising, clinging to a small patch they have managed to stake out for themselves in Britain and cherishing a sense of Ireland as the forever green, Catholic, land of saints and scholars, in contrast to the dreary grey urban landscapes in which they lived their lives. If Ireland is changed into a place resembling Brighton or Essex or Slough, or Sweden or the Netherlands, that diminishes their identity as individuals.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hook Rape apologist and proud Blueshirt.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts
Blueshirts = Irish fascist party/organisation 1930s, one of the elements that coalesced into Fine Gael.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81ine_N%C3%AD_Chonaill

I would not dismiss outright the possibility of a nativist movement in Ireland, even though at the moment the overwhelming zeitgeist there is internationalist and progressive.

There is an old authoritarian element in Ireland that rears its head from time to time. Of course Ireland had its own fascists in the 1930s, the Blueshirts, arising partly from the Free State national Army who had fought the Republicans in the Civil War.

Then you have the likes of George Hook with his Christian Brothers and rugby background - very typical Irish middle class, middle aged male - who is interesting in that he is so pro-priest at a time when the RC church as an institution has come under such fire for decades of abuse and cover ups. He appeals to many Irish people of a certain age, men because of the machismo of rugby and women because they grew up in a very authoritarian era and are well trained handmaids. Aine ni Chonaill is an example of a woman who swallowed the Kool-aid of her youth and the education system she eventually became a part of in no uncertain fashion - another authoritarian, with a very conservative RC philosophy accompanied by naked racism, quite a mish mash. Interesting that she seems to have been a supporter of the Progressive Democrats, who were an authoritarian and fiscal rectitude splinter from Fianna Fail, considered by many in the more left wing and Republican grouping in FF to be worse than the Blueshirts because they were traitors.

Overall, Ireland has a lot of pride in having shaken off the authoritarianism of the past, and perhaps this will be a defence against creeping fascism.

The danger renewed sectarian violence in NI poses is that authoritarianism can be unleashed again, though this particular area of state power has been an exception to the overall reduction in authoritarianism in recent decades.

The willingness to use the power of the State against Republican paramilitaries has been a feature of policy in Ireland since Fianna Fail was founded and became the one true church of Republicanism, with heretics not tolerated. Likewise, or some would say maybe even moreso, Fine Gael has been happy to preside over censorship, restriction of legal rights (special courts, etc) and draconian imprisonment for paramilitary activity.

HesterThrale · 04/01/2018 20:34

Just caught up from this morning...

DGRossetti Did anyone catch Today on R4 with John Humphries interviewing Tony Blair? AIBU to think that if 1/1000th of the grilling Blair got had been directed at the Leavers on the BBC, we might not need this thread? Can anyone else here disprove my assertion that no Leaver has faced such an aggressive manner on R4?

I did, and I totally agree DGR. I think Blair was surprised at the level of ferocity. (Although he's experienced enough to cope.)
Half an hour later John Humphrys had Norman Lamont on to give the 'alternative point of view', but gave him comparatively kid-glove treatment.
I am getting fed up with the Today programme stance. And when will the 'intelligent media' decide to do their job properly, and expose incompetence and dishonesty?

Doubletrouble99 · 04/01/2018 20:45

I, as a conservative certainly wouldn't have a problem with a leader who is a lesbian or a Scot. Why would EVEL mean that you couldn't have a Scot as a national leader Pretty?
I am certainly not 'socially conservative', where do you get the idea Bigchoc that 'most of us hated the last few decades of equality legislation'?
I am always very curious how so many of you have such firm views on Conservatives or Leavers yet you are neither and really haven't a clue!

thecatfromjapan · 04/01/2018 21:09

Well, I'm glad to hear that, Double. Are you a member of the Conservative Party? If so, you're an outlier. Membership is estimated at around 70,000 presently - and the views of that membership are increasingly authoritarian and socially conservative.

This, I believe, is a problem. The Conservative Party is one of our major political parties and that swerve to the social right is not representative of the UK. It's driving the drive to the right in government - and it's a real cause for concern.

If you are not a member, might I suggest you join? I am firmly of the opinion that the current membership needs diluting.