Westminstenders: Blue Passports

[RedToothBrush]

Yay for the blue passports.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all

May next year bring us £350 million for the NHS, cake, unicorns, financial passporting, access to the single market, Irish love and of course control to the people.

(Apologies been up to my eyeballs. Normal service will resume after Christmas).

Red I'm privileged to know you.

I think that was a mixture of some trolls / bots being trained to goad, while staying within the rules…and a few posters who let themselves be goaded into breaking the rules

There was certainly an element of this, but also there were many posts getting deleted for no apparent reason at all.

I had a post deleted because I used the word "lies" three times in it - I very carefully didn't call anybody a liar, but that was still allowed to be deleted. I'm still not happy with MNHQ over that period, however much they may be allowing us to continue this debate on a quiet corner away from the rest of the site.

Latest Pete North post.

peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/brexit-is-search-for-britains-soul.html

Have only skim-read but there are some, er, interesting parts.

"Makiyama notes that "The country’s role has been hollowed to the point where special interests gain more from gaming domestic politics than from playing a bigger role in the world. Indeed, for backbenchers, hedge fund managers and think tank quacks, Little Britain seems far more lucrative than a Great Britain".

He's not wrong. Brexit is largely defined criminally stupid backbenchers, Tory cronies, The Legatum Institute and its crossovers into financial interests in the City, not least the BBA. The vultures are moving in for the great British fire sale.

This is one of the more regrettable consequences of Brexit, but I'm still not persuaded that that Brexit of itself is a bad thing." (I will believe because I must)

"Britain is never again going to be a global superpower, and its diminishing influence in the world is a fact of life irrespective of Brexit." (Yes, but those most galvanised to vote Leave don't think that).

Red, you are too modest
Thank you so much for these threads.

Congratulations Red I have said for ages that you should get an award 🥇

Well done red and thank you. These threads are essential reading for me.

Did anyone catch Today on R4 with John Humphries interviewing Tony Blair ?

AIBU to think that if 1/1000th of the grilling Blair got had been directed at the Leavers on the BBC, we might not need this thread ?

Can anyone else here disprove my assertion that no Leaver has faced such an aggressive manner on R4 ?

Congratulations, Red! Many thanks for these fantastic threads, I read Westminstenders almost every day and have learned so much on here, they really are invaluable.

Article in the Guardian this morning about biggest ever polling of party members’ opinions.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/04/tory-members-a-breed-apart-from-other-main-parties-study-finds

No surprises re the odious views of many Tory members but depressing reading nevertheless:

The study found that 41% of Conservatives backed gay marriage, compared to more than 80% of members of the other three parties. More than half of Tory members back the death penalty, 84% believe schools “should teach children to obey authority” and 44% support the censorship of films and magazines – significantly more than any other parties, although SNP members tended to be less liberal than their peers in Labour and the Lib Dems.

(...) just 11% of Conservative members agree that austerity has been taken too far, against 98% for Labour, 93% in the SNP and 75% among Lib Dems.

Encouraging numbers re Labour members and Brexit though:

In contrast, there is overwhelming backing for these options among members of the other parties, even Labour, which under Jeremy Corbyn is occupying the middle ground over Brexit. Among Labour members, 87% want the UK to remain in the single market, 85% in the customs union, and 78% support a new referendum.

Gove says that farmers will get subsidies for turning fields back into wildflower meadows after Brexit.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/04/farmland-could-be-turned-into-meadows-post-brexit-says-michael-gove

This comment hits the nail on the head:

'Or when translated from Govespeak:

Post-Brexit we are going to allow unlimited agricultural imports from non-EU countries, thus destroying your farms as working businesses. Instead, we'll give you money so us poshos can all pretend to be shepherds, Marie Antionette style.

At least it does tie in with the Brexit delusion of reverting to an 1850s Britain that never really existed outside of some bodice ripping novellas.'

Sky news has an interview with that former police chief we were talking about a few pages back, I think it's the same guy. Theresa May has blood on her hands and institutional racism at the heart of government is stopping her from dealing with knife crime.
m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1566522800105652&id=659844274106847.

DentalDilemma Another way of looking at the 'post-Brexit farming subsidy' is to see it as a softener/sweetener for all the Conservative-voting, Leave-voting farmers (a significant faction) who are now going to find themselves utterly broken by Brexit: "You're fucked - but here's a bung. Please don't stop voting for us."

There was a farmer on a Brexit thread a while back, asking people not to regard all farmers as being in that category - she and her partner had voted Remain precisely because they thought Brexit would hammer farming. I feel so sorry for people like her.

Strong words from the Police chappie. I can't help but feel he's right.

Dentaldilemma Incredible that 84% of Tory MPs believe schools should “teach” children to obey authority which sounds like a euphemism for bringing back the cane.That taken with
42 per of Leave voters backing the return of corporal punishment in schools.

I despair. It never ceases to amaze me that any human being thinks that adults in authority bullying children will lead to anything other than those children learning to use force themselves.

I want my children to be brave, and able to speak truth to power, and not be afraid to stand up to authority figures when they are in the wrong.

If force and punishment is the way we are heading, I’m home educating thanks very much.

Tony Blair doing the complete opposite of what Owen Jones was advocating, to a predictable reaction.

Actually I think that teaching children to obey authority is also about educating children so that, as adults, they will obey authority and never question it.
Teaching children to think independantly isn’t good for (some) politicians who don’t like to be held into account (aka being questioned)

Congratulations Red and many thanks for the threads.
💐

lonelyplanetmum I think the thing that makes me most sad about the whole of Brexit is that this (authoritarian bent) is not the direction in which 'we' are heading.

Those reactionary views are very much not the views that young people hold. I really think it was precisely because the direction of travel in the UK was away from those views that a, very angry, tranche of society voted for Brexit.

In some ways, it's a last hurrah.

In other ways, it's been a remarkable seizure of power: they literally have managed to grab the controls and turn the direction of travel.

In a very real way, they have derailed the direction of the UK.

I honestly think it is an open question as to whether Brexit is doing/going to do so much damage that they have actually managed to close off the path to the future that, until very recently, I thought was inevitable. It is quite, quite possible that the damage is/will be so profound that simple demographics (progressive-minded young people and progressives/open democratic types) will not be enough to put the UK back on course in time.

I worry that a ridiculous referendum gave a declining group a chance to steal the future.

Britain is never again going to be a global superpower, and its diminishing influence in the world is a fact of life irrespective of Brexit." (Yes, but those most galvanised to vote Leave don't think that).

And it would have lost LESS of its influence if it had stayed in the EU.

My concern is that the damage is already so profound that progressively minded young people and progressives/open democratic types will vote with their feet and leave, if of course there is anywhere left who will give them
Visas.

And it would have lost LESS of its influence if it had stayed in the EU.

I'd rather have no homeless, a properly funded NHS, and and education system for all waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before "influence".

If "influence" results in local authorities acting as if they were clearing the Warsaw ghetto just so some privileged toff doesn't need eye-bleach in case he sees a homeless person, then you can keep it.

Last post was responding to and agreeing with the cat

Congratulations RTB. Thanks for keeping this thread going since June 2016. I appreciate it very, very much. Like others, I've learnt a lot from it and find it an excellent 'digest' of Brexit news/events.

I despair. It never ceases to amaze me that any human being thinks that adults in authority bullying children will lead to anything other than those children learning to use force themselves.

Remember that corporal punishment was only banned in state schools in 1986 and was allowed in private schools until 1999. Considering the age of the average Tory party member this means an awful lot of them will have considered it normal what they were at school.

People who supported the use of corporal punishment didn't all suddenly see the light in the '80s and realise how horrible it is. They are still alive and voting, and still see no issue at all with beating young children.

We have this habit of thinking that just because the dominant view on something has changed that all the people who supported it before have disappeared. They haven't and they will in many cases have continued to pass their views down to their children. It will be generations before these ideas become truely unthinkable, if they ever do.

Yes - I went to a private prep school and got a ruler across the hand for a wide variety of trivial reasons that I didn't understand aged about 5. It has had a huge effect on me. I think that particular teacher was a sadist but we shouldn't be beating children at school. We shouldn't teach people that if you are physically stronger you get to run the show. It's very regressive.

Considering the age of the average Tory party member this means an awful lot of them will have considered it normal what they were at school

That " it didn't do me any harm" attitude is so flawed. Errrr yes actually it did do you harm. And no you are not sanctioning emulating your flawed childhood on my kids.

Remember that corporal punishment was only banned in state schools in 1986 and was allowed in private schools until 1999

Going back, haven't the British have always had a reputation abroad for being flog-happy - especially the navy ? Wasn't Wellington famed for it.

Pour encourager les autres ?