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Westminstenders: Blue Passports

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2017 14:57

Yay for the blue passports.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all

May next year bring us £350 million for the NHS, cake, unicorns, financial passporting, access to the single market, Irish love and of course control to the people.

(Apologies been up to my eyeballs. Normal service will resume after Christmas).

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DentalDilemma · 04/01/2018 10:22

I want my children to be brave, and able to speak truth to power, and not be afraid to stand up to authority figures when they are in the wrong.

Perfectly put, lonelyplanet! I don't have children (yet), but couldn't agree more.

I actually found those 84% the most shocking number of all. If a large enough chunk of society feels authority shouldn't be questioned, we have the perfect conditions for fascism to take hold.

Hopefully, thecat is right and these really are views held by a declining group. Whenever I for example read one of the very frequent threads on here around 'school rules', I'm not so sure though. Educated women, many of them probably in the 30-50 age bracket, appear to unquestioningly support blind adherence to ridiculous and arbitrary rules. Very small fry, I know, but I think it does say something about many people's general outlook. I have noticed a 'but that's the rulez' mentality on many other topics as well, often low level stuff, but still concerning IMO. Or maybe that's just my authority hating ADHD brain imagining things?

RedToothBrush · 04/01/2018 10:34

But why and breaking social convention/expectation is fundamental to innovation and entrepreneurship.

Its always culturally been the UK's strength given our small population compared to some other nations.

Women in a certain age group obeying the rules says much of social conditioning. Why do we see fewer female entrepreneurs? Women are actively taught not to question or challenge in the same way as men. Male entitlement is underpinned by a value placed on this but why spirit.

Those who do not want to be challenged by the youth and so advocate crushing this, kill our British culture and the potential of our future.

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HashiAsLarry · 04/01/2018 10:38

Yy lonely and cat. I want my kids to stand up for themselves in the face of wrong behaviour, even if that's by an authority figure. When they point out I got something wrong, I admit it to them and say 'yes, mummy gets things wrong too'.

My parents were caned at school, one of them also beaten by a parent. I was hit as a child. Yet they still think the trouble with me comes from my not being punished physically enough especially at school Hmm fwiw i behaved well at school so I wasn't likely to have gotten any punishment anyway but hey, facts.
They aren't rounded healthy people at all.

Sometimes I think it's a generational jealousy. We have something they don't, and we can be brave enough to use it. But now they're the generation who 'should be obeyed' they don't like that they aren't getting their turn. Tbf it must be a double whack, to go through the moulding process then to not see the benefit at the other end.

BiglyBadgers · 04/01/2018 10:42

It is noticeable that these people are very much for other people being made to follow rules. Children, women, disabled and the poor in particular. When it comes to them breaking rules we have the recent examples of the sight of Tories all rushing to defend an MP for having porn on his work computer and of course our recently discussed Toby Young who believes everyone should stay in their place apart from him.

These are people who want everyone else to be obedient to their rules, while they do whatever they like unquestioned.

In summary, yes, you are absolutely right that this is about having an authoritarian type system. It also once again harks back to the good old days when children were seen and not heard and little Jimmy the chimney sweep was damn grateful for his 'tuppence. All women required from life was the chance to please their husbands and the deserving poor sang quaint folk songs while doffing their caps to their betters.

lonelyplanetmum · 04/01/2018 10:51

I actually found those 84% [of MPs] the most shocking number of all. If a large enough chunk of society feels authority shouldn't be questioned ....^
^
It doesn't all add up does it? On the one hand there's a (slim) majority of MPs who seem to be of the authoritarian old school, with the masses should do as they're told attitude. Very clear attempts to circumvent Parliamentary democracy by trying to trigger Article 50 unilaterally, Henry VIII powers, avoiding debate vote on final deal etc.

Yet on the other hand these authoritarians are the very same people who use ' the people have spoken' banner. There are so many illogical contradictions it makes my head spin.

DGRossetti · 04/01/2018 10:52

I tend to have a shiver whenever anyone defends something as "it's the law " . It's that mentality that shopped Jews to the Nazis.

Anyway, there's nothing magical about laws. They're just a human construct.

DGRossetti · 04/01/2018 11:00

Did anyone read the thread last year from a poster who was paid by Tesco using a card scheme rather than direct into a bank ?

Seems to be a thing for 2018 ....

www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jan/02/members-club-backed-by-lord-ashcroft-seeks-to-cut-staffs-basic-pay

Hartley/REX/Shutterstock
Staff at an exclusive private members’ club co-owned by the Tory donor Lord Ashcroft have been asked to take a cut in their basic pay in return for a share of the service charge, in a move that could leave low-paid workers vulnerable while reducing the company’s tax payments.

Workers at the Devonshire Club in London, where members pay £2,400 a year for access to a 68-room boutique hotel, brasserie and champagne bar, were asked last month if they would take a formal pay cut that would reduce their earnings to the level of the legal minimum wage.

They were promised that their total pay would be topped up to the current level using money from the service charges automatically added to customers’ bills and distributed via a system called a tronc.

The scheme would potentially cut the Devonshire Club’s tax bill as, unlike basic pay, national insurance payments are not levied on independently distributed tips.

Although staff will save on national insurance in the short term under the scheme, cutting their contributions will affect statutory protections such as redundancy pay, maternity or paternity pay, or the state pension. Money from a tronc also cannot be included in staff contracts, potentially leaving staff vulnerable to a pay cut.

A letter to staff from the company operating the tronc, WMT Troncmaster Services, promises a minimum amount every month but makes clear: “This amount is, of course, dependent on the amount of gratuities our customers pay and cannot be guaranteed.”

One member of staff told the Guardian they felt they had been given little choice but to accept the change: “I’m pretty cross about it. If I go to a restaurant, have a good meal and give a tip, I don’t give it for the company to take that money out of salaries.”

WMT Troncmaster Services manages a similar scheme for Fortnum & Mason, uncovered in a Guardian exposé last year. It is understood that WMT works with more than 150 restaurants, including many with Michelin stars.

Dave Turnbull, regional officer at the Unite union, said: “Since the introduction of the national living wage we have seen evidence of this model spreading rapidly across hotels and restaurants. HMRC seem oblivious to what is happening here.”

The board of the Devonshire Club said in a statement: “In order to ensure impartiality and transparency we have engaged the services of an independent third party to manage our tronc.

“No member of staff is under any obligation to join. Employees have been given an option to join the tronc system as the system was not in place when the club opened.”

AgnesSkinner · 04/01/2018 11:43

PHEWKIP! Ukip chief Henry Bolton, 54, ditches wife for topless glamour model Jo Marney who’s nearly half his age

Is it now de rigeur for UKIP leaders to dump their wives and children for younger versions?

Can we look forward to a Henry Bolton “I’m 54 and broke” special in the Mail sometime soon?

lonelyplanetmum · 04/01/2018 11:46

There was a consultation on the whole tipping/ tronc issue in 2016.

Not sure what the outcome was though.

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/tips-gratuities-cover-and-service-charges-proposals-for-further-action

BigChocFrenzy · 04/01/2018 12:10

Many Tories and Brexiters complain of "left wing brainwashing" by teachers and unis.
Gove's education reforms were intended o lobotomise the part of education that involves independent analysis and though

Before the Reformation, especially in Mediaeval times, the Church kept the Bible in Latin, so ordinary people couldn't read and analyse it.
That had nothing to do with saving souls and everything to do with the ruling classes maintaining their lucrative power structure,

with the clergy and the monarchy / aristocracy/ (now the oligarchs) being the 1st and 2nd Estates,
ruling over the Commoners, the 3rd Estate

Now, the 4th estate - the press / TV - has been neutered by wealthy media oligarchs dominating; i.e. the 2nd Estate neutering the 4th
I've read of the blogosphere being called the 5th Estate, partly replacing the 4th.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/01/2018 12:12

< dodgy wifi > Gove's education reforms were intended to lobotomise the part of education that involves independent analysis and thought

GaspodeWonderCat · 04/01/2018 12:19

Going back, haven't the British have always had a reputation abroad for being flog-happy - especially the navy ? Wasn't Wellington famed for it?

“Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy, and the lash.” Winston Churchill.

Another view www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/life_at_sea_01.shtml is that it was less harsh than shoreside punishments. If anything, naval punishment was less severe, for sailors were a scarce and valuable resource that no captain would waste; also, flogging meant that the punishment was quickly completed, and the man could return to duty. There was no alternative, because the navy was, in all things, a reflection of the society it served.

Same for Wellington and his Peninsular army he called them the scum of the earth - and it really is wonderful that we should have made them the fine fellows they are en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arthur_Wellesley,_1st_Duke_of_Wellington. Again, the army is/was a reflection of the society it served.

Wellington and Nelson are revered by the armed forces, because they won (!), but they did not waste men's lives in war. Yes, men died, but not in unnecessary grandiose actions.

DGRossetti · 04/01/2018 12:25

GaspodeWonderCat

Interesting, tx ..

TheElementsSong · 04/01/2018 12:50

mobile.twitter.com/IsolatedBrit/status/948499568932610048

This Twitter thread makes me so sad.

ElenaGreco123 · 04/01/2018 13:20

lonelyplanetmum The same thing happened to the tips / troncs consultation as everything else. There is no headspace for it, so the government has been analysing feedback for over a year now.

ElenaGreco123 · 04/01/2018 13:27

TheElementSong That is very sad.

It was the first time yesterday that for my own safety I did not respond to nasty bloke constantly criticising me in the supermarket queue. Partly because the familiar cashier was begging me with her eyes not to react, partly because he was very aggressive and I was alone and I did not want him to hear my accent. [hangs her head in shame]

CardinalSin · 04/01/2018 14:08

Yet on the other hand these authoritarians are the very same people who use ' the people have spoken' banner

That's because they claim that what "the people" have said just happens to be exactly what they want to happen

CardinalSin · 04/01/2018 14:10

That's dreadful Elena. I have been known to make my opinions on people whom I overhear making such comments abundantly clear (not always to the approval of my other half).

RedToothBrush · 04/01/2018 14:17

for sailors were a scarce and valuable resource that no captain would waste

and

Wellington and Nelson are revered by the armed forces, because they won (!), but they did not waste men's lives in war. Yes, men died, but not in unnecessary grandiose actions.

Yes because literally half of them sent to the Caribbean during the era of Nelson died of tropical disease!!

This is why being sent to the Caribbean by the Navy was often regarded as a death sentence in its own right, and why so few wanted to do it willingly.

Hence the practice of 'pressganging' where men were forced into the Navy. These were almost always low class men who society didn't really value - anyone who was a vagrant or a petty criminal (or more precisely anyone who was suspected of being a vagrant or petty criminal) and youths with no other obvious value to society.

This sometimes included the effective kidnapping of men. It was particularly common for canal or river boatmen to 'disappear' because society generally had a low opinion of them and their lack of a fixed abode made them vulnerable to being thought of as vagrants and it would be less likely that their absence would be noticed plus they had some skills onboard boats.

(Notably, seamen were not covered by the Magna Carta and "failure to allow oneself to be pressed" was at one time punishable by death.)

So yes there were volunteers for the navy, but it was pretty much the option of the desperate, the destitute and the detested. Your maximum life expectancy as a sailor at the time was around 45 years of age.

The idea that they were revered at the time by those who served in the Army or Navy, is funny. Men feared being pressganged. The reason by they were later revered by the armed forces is largely based on revisionist thinking, selective thinking and patriotic nonsense. And often by people who don't belong to the class or social status of those who were in this position. Those who did belong to that class have little historical voice because of their status, because they died young and because they were illiterate.

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DGRossetti · 04/01/2018 14:36

The reason by they were later revered by the armed forces is largely based on revisionist thinking, selective thinking and patriotic nonsense.

Thank God we are so over that in the 21st century.

RedToothBrush · 04/01/2018 15:07

As a side note, the history of the wives of the Peninsular War is interesting.

British soldiers were allowed to marry, and some were allowed to take their wives with them. These places for wives were limited and often done by lottery in the lower ranks. The wives and children marched with the Army, serving its domestic need for washing, cooking etc.

Men often took wives (and girlfriends) whilst serving abroad too - but these were not classed as 'official wives', so whilst they were married the British Army did not recognise any duty to them. Some of these wives were women who had been sold to soldiers by family members out of desperation.

So when the British Army returned to the UK, these wives and their children who were not recognised by the British army as being their responsibility (many of whom were disowned by families for running off with a British solider) were effectively abandoned by the State with many soldiers not having the means to bring their families home with them. A couple of regiments did privately raise the funds between them for their wives to return and a few men did desert rather than abandon their wives but hundreds were left behind.

Not only that, numerous women who should have been entitled to pensions with the death of their husband were unable to prove they were married nor even indeed that their husband was necessarily even dead (if there was no body to be found). They too, were left in a situation where they were abandoned.

Something of familiar pattern with war, but one made worse by the active practise of the State allowing (encouraging) women to accompany their husbands to war and in so doing using them as a work force for the army's needs.

I'm sure these women revered Nelson and Wellington.

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DGRossetti · 04/01/2018 15:12

Goes quietly unmentioned in "Sharpe ..."

RedToothBrush · 04/01/2018 15:47

Of course it does.

Anyway, remember how the UK are supposed to be considering joining the TPP now? Here's some commentary on that PR stunt.

Alexander Clarkson‏ @APHClarkson
Remarkable that UK pundits don't seem to have clocked that TPP isn't even a stable framework. The US has walked out. The Canadians show signs of backing out. The Japanese are struggling to keep it going. The Australians are sceptical. And the Chinese are working to subvert it

Making grand claims that the UK can replace EU membership by joining TPP is like replacing a luxury car in your driveway for a bunch of car parts on a factory floor that no one knows whether they will fit together.

It's looking very likely that TPP without the US and Canada will be overwhelmed by a rival China dominated framework designed to entrench Chinese hegemony in its near abroad. That risks counter-moves by Japan, Vietnam and India to counter Chinese influence

This loose talk in the UK of joining TPP betrays a stunning lack of awareness of how it is caught up in wider geopolitical rivalries driven by fears of Chinese power. A UK that leaps into that fray risks getting ground down by much bigger states pressuring it to choose a side

And yes, by this point it isn't just India, Japan or China. In throwing itself into this form of Asian geopolitics the UK would be in a weaker position than states like Vietnam or Indonesia.

The TPP announcement reflects a worrying ignorance in the UK of geopolitical dynamics around the South China Sea as well as delusions over the extent of British power.
Just another day in Brexit

Prominent Brexiter as well as Remainer pundits are obsessed with Britain's 19th century empire yet only have a sketchy grasp of how empire works in the 21st

A good outline of the geopolitical dimensions of TPP. It was framed from the start as a Japanese-US-Vietnamese-Australian project to contain China. As with the EU, economic integration was part of a wider strategic agenda which the UK would have to accept

thediplomat.com/2017/01/us-withdrawal-from-tpp-geopolitical-and-geoeconomic-gift-for-china/

Many Remainers still struggle with the fact that the EU is an institution that uses economic integration for a wider geopolitical project.
Many Brexiters struggle with the fact that all other potential trading blocs also link economic integration with wider geopolitical projects

trade-off - noun UK
1. a situation in which you balance two opposing situations or qualities:
2. [ usually singular ] a situation in which you accept something bad in order to have something good:

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 04/01/2018 15:48

That's terrible elena - it's difficult being in that position when you feel like you could easily be a target in a volatile situation (am brown so no hiding my "otherness").

Will the Trump/Bannon open warfare have implications for Farage?

Otto English
‏**@Otto**_English
The Brexit right is eating itself over Bannon. Farage is backing Trump. Raheem is tying his knickers in knots. Popcorn on.

twitter.com/Otto_English/status/948657923802238976

Farage super quick to dump Bannon. But UKIP's Pravda is Breitbart and that is run by executive chairman Bannon. It's going to be delicious.

Bannon is going to have a lot of dirt on Trump and vice versa so forget Korea this could go nuclear.

And

Carole Cadwalladr‏
@carolecadwalla
Bad Boys of Brexit update. Breitbart's @RaheemKassam plumps for Bannon. @andywigmore & @Arronbanks declare #TeamTrump. @NigelFarage yet to pick between Mummy & Daddy. Likelihood of any of this being what's really going on? Low. Distinct whiff of sulphur & stagecraft...

Carole Cadwalladr
‏**@carolecadwalla**
Exhibit A. @andywigmore goes full pantomime dame:

Andy Wigmore‏
@andywigmore
Oh.......him....never dealt with him, do t think he liked me very much thought @Arron_banks and I were bellends - my contact was the Governor of Mississippi and lovely Kelly Ann Conway

RedToothBrush · 04/01/2018 16:00

Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick
John Strafford, chairman of the Campaign for Conservative Democracy, says he has heard two independent reports saying Conservative national membership is now down to 70,000

Don't celebrate. This is also true:

Andy McKay @andygmckay
^Whilst Liberal Democrats have 103,000 at last count. Members not the be all and end all, but looking at membership attitudes and activity in today’s QMUL report worrying for them. No guarantee the members would elect a ‘Davidson’ over a ‘Rees-Mogg’.

Allan @CnallA
There's basically a guarantee they wouldn't elect Davidson. The membership appear outright hostile to what passes for liberal Toryism now. It'd take every press organ to back her up & spin like fury. Even then...

I was convinced Leadsome'd beat May in full party vote.

For context:
Tory Party Membership 2005: 253,000
Tory Party Membership 2013: 134,000

Source: Telegraph 18/9/2013

Doesn't seem like they have picked up many members from UKIP does it?

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