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Westminstenders: Blue Passports

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2017 14:57

Yay for the blue passports.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all

May next year bring us £350 million for the NHS, cake, unicorns, financial passporting, access to the single market, Irish love and of course control to the people.

(Apologies been up to my eyeballs. Normal service will resume after Christmas).

OP posts:
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37
woman11017 · 27/12/2017 19:13

Naa pain fits in perfectly. Some brexitors write the same. No surprise, same funding etc.

Corcory · 27/12/2017 21:00

Which Brexiters write that sort of thing Woman?

woman11017 · 27/12/2017 21:30

I saw an anti EU British tweet yesterday which said 'May is a Jew' and it wasn't meant as a compliment.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/12/2017 22:05

Think of those Tory Remainer MPs who've received threats of murder and rape after the Daily Heil pilloried them

and the Viscount convicted of trying to incite random people online to run over Gina Miller

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 27/12/2017 22:12

From the last thread:

Reader Paul Hollands spent a week on a pro-Brexit Facebook group to break out of the Remain social media ‘bubble’.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/facebook-turns-leavers-into-brexit-extremists-1-5322487

I have spent the last week in a pro-Brexit group on Facebook. I did this to try and break out of my ‘bubble’, but also I went in search of the reason why people voted for Brexit. I was looking for reasoned arguments for why Brexit is happening. I found none.

What I discovered was large groups of people being radicalised daily and hourly, by far-right and neo-Nazi propaganda and a ubiquitous belief in wild conspiracy theories such as the Kalergi Plan, Agenda 21 and George Soros and the new world order. Google’s algorithmic flaws ensure that they can easily find some hate speech site that confirms these darkly wild fantasies.

Anyone disagreeing with them is a libtard leftist who is an apologist for Muslim terrorism. Sadiq Khan is hated because he is both ‘liberal’ Labour and a Muslim. There is huge support for Donald Trump because he is a ‘truth speaker’.

Remainers are called lefty Nazis who have been brainwashed by EU propaganda. When asked ‘why Nazi?’, the response comes that Hitler was a socialist because his party were the National Socialists.

The most common theme and motivator (and the most frightening) is a toxic mix of ideas about Muslims. In the minds of these people, all Muslims are terrorists and child rapists, and all immigrants are Muslims.

They say that Angela Merkel let millions of them into Germany and gave them EU passports and our EU membership means that they can now come to the UK to commit acts of terrorism.

Everything from the housing crisis, lack of NHS funding and cuts to benefits, police funding and cuts to the armed forces are blamed on the hordes of people the ‘bullying and corrupt’ EU are sending to the UK.

In reality, all of these things are the fault of our own governments and well within the power of our leaders to address, but Brexiteers have accepted an essentially racist political explanation for these issues, egged on by the right-wing press.

Here is one typical comment: “Please start a petition to limit the berth (sic) rate for all, Immigrants are outbreeding us by 3 to 1, it will also reduce the population on our overcrowded island and save on child benefit Pay outs. And reduce NHS costs.”

These are groups of people whose Facebook feeds are full of bile, hatred and misery. I’m sure it makes them all deeply fearful, but it is also radicalising them. It is not too hard to imagine this degenerating into paramilitarism of the type that killed Jo Cox.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 27/12/2017 22:31

Theresa May urged to withdraw Tory whip from Michael Heseltine

Norman Tebbit leads calls to ban former colleague over comments that a Corbyn government could be preferable to Brexit

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/27/michael-heseltine-theresa-may-urged-withdraw-tory-whip-brexit-comments?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true

woman11017 · 27/12/2017 22:31

Thanks for that pain I found some more tweets from those attacking remainers. It is interesting to see their narrative. May did attack 'citizens of nowhere'.

Westminstenders: Blue Passports
Corcory · 27/12/2017 22:36

Fair enough. I get most of my information from these threads or the likes where I feel we have reasoned views. I take no heed of Neo Nazis on face book or idiots who post that May is a Jew considering she is the daughter of a vicar or people who spout rubbish at anyone who doesn't share their views.
All the above are not 'Brexiters' they are extremists using social media to whip up hate.
My point is that what pain posted were the views of a Trump endorsed republican candidate. I really don't think the conservatives have any serving or potential candidate with these types of views.

Cailleach1 · 28/12/2017 00:50

And if she wasn't the daughter of a vicar? Whether she is Jewish or not is neither here nor there. The idea people would regard it as an issue is the real problem.

And trying to cast aspersions on Sadiq Khan is on a hiding to nothing. In the Mayoral election, Goldsmith tried a dirty campaign of similarly reducing him to a two dimensional 'Muslim' brand and people were disgusted. Didn't work. May have backfired as it turned some people right off Goldsmith. He seemed more fragrant when he appeared to loosely have Eco/Green friendly credentials. Before the underbelly was shown.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/12/2017 01:04

The examples below are just a few vile cases I remember offhand - I'm sure Westministenders can quite many others

This is definitely not the same Tory party I regarded as "old-fashioned but safe" back in the 1960s - 1970s -
They were no more offensive then than the social norms of the day, often politer, so where did all the nastiness come from ?
I remember Ted Heath sacking Enoch Powell immediately after his "Rivers of Blood" speech

Tory councillor suspended following racist anti-Irish tweet during Eurovision
http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-tory-eurovision-3388993-May2017/

Anger as Tory councillors in anti-Catholic and racist tweets row are re-instated to party
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/anger-tory-councillors-anti-catholic-and-racist-tweets-row-are-re-instated-party

May orders Anne Marie Morris MP to be suspended after using N-word
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/10/tories-urgently-investigating-after-mp-uses-n-word-at-public-event
Other Tories using this phrase, deliberately pandering to those against "PC", i.e. those who want the freedom to use racial insults again
http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/politics/tory-racism-racist-n-word-in-woodpile-anne-marie-morris-other-examples-conservatives-a7834291.html

What is alarming is that a few Tory politicians have expressed support for far right policies in Europe and the USA - I include Trump here
and the appeals to nationalism to distract from lack of progress on Brexit.

mathanxiety · 28/12/2017 03:08

Corcory
The problem with calling May a Jew is not that it is inaccurate because she is a vicar's daughter.

The point is that 'Jew' is being used as an insult.

You are splitting hairs here in claiming that the hard right/anti-Semites are not Brexiteers but extremists using social media to whip up hate. They have found a home and a receptive audience among Brexiteers. They speak the language of the Leave campaigns when they focus on the negative impact of immigrants, migrant workers and foreigners/the EU/Europeans and use the word Jew as an insult.

Theresa May's 'citizens of nowhere' phrase itself was drawn from a deep and ancient well of anti-Jewish slander. It is an accusation that was used against Jews for hundreds of years, and the insinuation behind it was used against Catholics too, in Britain.

Mistigri · 28/12/2017 04:07

Long must-read thread from Steve Bullock (@guitarmoog) on twitter. I don't disagree with any of this.

There has to be an exclusive focussing of energies on things that contribute to stopping Brexit. No energy should be wasted on anything else. All possible ways to do this involve this government falling &/or a final say on the deal (Parl or Ref) 1/
1. Party politics. Stop it. 

All points gained from one another are null and void if a Tory Brexit goes ahead. Parties and their supporters have to work together. 2/^
Labour: The strategy has to be to convince the Labour leadership that a strategy of waiting for a catastrophic Tory Brexit then sweeping into power for a decade will not work. 3/^^
They may even get power once, but a Labour government that cannot deliver on its programme due to the downturn in the economy, reduced tax receipts, higher borrowing costs and the need to fight rising inflation would last one term max. 4/^^
A failed Labour Govt means it’s back to the Tories for a decade or so, and the race to the bottom and bonfire of rights so beloved of its right wing. 5/^^
What will benefit Labour is trying to bring down this government, gaining power (almost certainly with others), and allowing a final say for all. So, energies must be directed at convincing them of this, not scoring points or arguing about Corbyn. 6/^^
Labour must also be convinced that it will need to work properly with other parties, including in a coalition, esp. SNP and LibDems, but also Plaid and Greens. 7/^^
bDems: Yes, they were a coalition partner. Yes, they reneged on promises and cocked up the coalition negotiations, sacrificing policies for posts. Yes, I was very angry with them. No, directing anger at them now doesn't help. 8/^^
That’s gone (and it’s normal for junior partners in coalitions elsewhere anyway). It’s about Brexit now. Besides, we can now see what a Tory Govt without the LibDems is like, and it is much, much worse. 9/^^
They need to work with Labour & SNP here, particularly as it’s very likely any GE would need them in a coalition. Talks on that should be happening right now. 10/^^
NP: SNP are the sole serious anti-Tory force in Scotland, and they are the 3rd largest party in WM. They have offered repeatedly to work with other parties. That should be taken up. 11/^^
(Disclosure, I’m an SNP member). They are right to try to save Scotland from Brexit if it happens (I joined to help this). They need to get vocal about a final say for the UK as well though. WM is not listening & UK leaving the EU, esp SM and CU, makes Indy much more complex. 12/^
2. Brexit Ultras. These are the MPs & public figures who believe in Brexit at all costs, preferably with no deal, and the 30-50% (??) of leave voters who support them. Ignore them fastidiously. Block them. Who cares? 13/^
They’ve lost. Ignore them. If Brexit happens, it’s a transition with everything except decision making, and SM+CU or Canada (much) later. Ignore the hell out of them14/
Don’t engage. Don’t respond. Don’t give them the oxygen of publicity. Don’t acknowledge them. Nothing will ever change their views. It wastes time and energy. Ignore them. 15/^^
If you can’t ignore them (eg on a panel, or on TV or Radio), laugh at them. Point and laugh at them. Say they are hilarious. Ask when their standup tour starts. Don't take them seriously or give credence. Show them up as the charlatans they are and smile while doing it. 16/^
3. The same goes for Brexit lies. Don’t enter into long conversations, with constant subject changes. Just say, “but that’s obviously a lie” and move on. All the evidence is now out there. Direct those you think can be convinced to it if needed, ignore if not. 17/^
If you’re explaining, you’re losing. Dismiss the lies for what they are and move on. Arguing gives credence to them, as if there is a genuine argument to be had. 18/^
4. No Brexit vs. Soft Brexit. There is nothing incoherent at all about arguing against any Brexit, while also pointing out that the least bad Brexit is remaining in the SM+CU. 19/^
We have to be realistic - Brexit might happen. Denying this possibility doesn’t help, and it doesn’t help mitigate the damage to our friends and families it will cause if it does. 20/^^
Remaining is far superior to EEA+CU membership. We know that, and we should argue that. But, some vague Canada-like thing is much worse than either, and that should be acknowledged 21/^^
This does not mean “accepting” a soft Brexit. It is not being disloyal to discuss the SM+CU. It’s about making sure the very worst and most damaging options are off the table for good while also trying to stop Brexit. 22/^^
If a final say on the deal is permitted by our overlords, the deal being the EEA+CU will also be easier to make a case for remaining against. 23/^
5. Focus exclusively on convincing (not haranguing or insulting) these groups:
a. Remainers who think nothing can be done. 
b. non-voters/no strong views/just accepting
c. Disenchanted leavers
d. Leavers still believing promises that won’t be met. 24/
6. Get personal. Many, many people just don’t see how anything will change for people, or for them. Personal stories and accounts of how it will or has affected us are very powerful, much more so than expert opinion or stats. 25/
7. Key Messages:
- Whatever you voted for, it wasn’t this.
- Even if it could have been good, the Govt. has screwed it up. 
- The Govt. should be focussing on sorting the UK’s problems (Housing, low wages, NHS, education), not wasting time and money on this. 26/^

  • This is diminishing the UK’s place and influence in the world, not just Europe. Nobody wants that. 
- This government is not going to replace EU funding for poorer regions/farmers/small businesses/science etc. It'll screw them, particularly the poorest regions. 
27/^^
  • We don’t have to do this. It is a choice to continue with this at every stage - EU27 have said UK can reverse if they want to. 
- Very wealthy people set out specifically to con people for their own gain. They were very, very good at it and spent a fortune to do it.
^
28/^
  • None of the concerns that people voted leave for are being helped by this Brexit. 
- The worst off will be hit hardest.
- Nobody could have possibly known quite how badly this would go. We were promised it would be easy. 
29/^
8. TL:DR. Parties & supporters need to work together; Ultras need to be ignored or laughed at, Lies dismissed and given no credence; realism & rationality maintained; convince those that may be able to be convinced. Stop blaming/shouting/insulting and focus on the outcome. 30/
Mistigri · 28/12/2017 04:11

Antisemitism rearing its head in more and more places on the nationalist right and left. It's not confined to the anglosphere either: the French left opposed Macron using antisemitic tropes.

We have learnt nothing from history.

Tanith · 28/12/2017 06:04

"And if she wasn't the daughter of a vicar? Whether she is Jewish or not is neither here nor there. The idea people would regard it as an issue is the real problem."

It's been going on for some time.

The bacon-eating pictures and the attack on Mr. Milliband senior were not really designed as direct attacks Ed Milliband: they wanted to highlight to their readers that Ed was Jewish.

TheElementsSong · 28/12/2017 06:37

I’m loving the hair-splitting and squirrels around here.

woman11017 · 28/12/2017 07:24

Misti there are some good discussions going on between #stopbrexit lib/dems and labour on ways forward. Steve Bullock makes good points. Lots of real life experiences of EU/UK being posted too.

70 labour councillors urging JC to join us.
Tory mayo of West Midlands Andy Street lobbying for SM.
Heseltine's pro EU intervention.
I can't find the ref but one of the Channel Islands has spoken out for remaining.

Tone of some is violent and shrill. I love the @50 people:

Westminstenders: Blue Passports
woman11017 · 28/12/2017 07:47

Give all British citizens living abroad the right to vote and dedicated MPs

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200005

The 4.5million gerrymandered EU/UK votes swung it for them, as they well know.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/12/2017 09:13

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/27/housing-crisis-could-radically-alter-uk-politics-says-ex-whitehall-chief-bob-kerslake

Describing the potential impact of the housing crisis on voters, Kerslake [Britain’s former top civil servant]:

“Some might go to the far right. It could be exploited against migrants and others, and that has happened.
There’s an equal chance they will become organised and vociferous within the mainstream political system, I would guess towards the left.”

Kerslake said that while he led the civil service,
government policies tended to be assessed on how they would affect older voters,
because they voted more and they were more likely to vote Conservative.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/12/2017 09:23

Mike Smithson
@MSmithsonPB
Times reporting that BrexSec DDavis being sidelined in the EU negotiations

David Davis sidelined as civil servant Oliver Robbins takes over Brexit negotiations

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38962792-eb52-11e7-ad3e-1cc26d7d8b0c

James O'Brien
@mrjamesob
Replacing Davis with an incontinent baboon would obviously be an improvement.
Replacing him with an ‘unelected bureaucrat’ is an irony no doubt lost on most Brexists.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/12/2017 09:28

For the Brexit record:

Goldman Sachs moving European unit from London to Dublin

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/73d2e262-eb45-11e7-ad3e-1cc26d7d8b0c

And

UK workers face zero real-wage growth over 2018

The Resolution Foundation says real pay remains £15-a-week below its peak before the 2008 financial crash.

news.sky.com/story/amp/uk-workers-face-zero-real-wage-growth-over-2018-11186103?__twitter_impression=true

Peter Geoghegan
@PeterKGeoghegan
It’s almost as if all the talk of blue passports, ‘merry Christmas’, pantos and safe spaces is a distraction from something....

howabout · 28/12/2017 10:00

“Ah, but Osborne and Clegg oppose Brexit!” is a common comment.
..... Is it any wonder that, in a referendum on the status quo, so many opted for the Big Red Button?"

I agree with Owen.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/28/knighthood-nick-clegg-george-osborne-britain-elite

BigChocFrenzy · 28/12/2017 10:15

The whole idea of knighthoods and peerages for time served as a politician is ridiculous

But it's part of what keeps many politicians in line, even late in career, unwilling to rebel against the party line and risk their bauble

Don't get me started on "order of the British Empire" for lesser beings Xmas Grin

woman11017 · 28/12/2017 10:18

talk of blue passports, ‘merry Christmas’, pantos and safe spaces

What like Moslem ban, attacks on Obama and attacks on the media, to distract from Mueller?

Surely losing our human rights, travel rights and access to affordable food wouldn't be lost in distractions like pass colours?

< innocent face>

I'm not going to post it cos it's nasty, but the new found feminist (LOL) interest amongst kippers in defending the sexual rights of young women against unwanted attention from the 'wrong colour' of harasser, is straight out of an old anti semitic/ anti communist America first poster.

Almost to the letter.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/12/2017 10:18

Farage's annual strop about not getting a knighthood shows even those who claim to be rebels, fighting against the elite
desperately hanker after those ego baubles that the ruling class hands out as goodies.