Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Rebel Rebel Your Brexit is a Mess.

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/12/2017 19:46

Hot Tramp, I love you so!

The European Parliament have agreed to progress talks to the next stage. Despite Brexiteers saying its not legally binding, it is apparent that the EU certainly disagree.

Not only that, but the wording of the deal goes further. It binds us to not being able to agree and new trade deals for 2 years.

The All Important Amendment 7 to the Great Repel Bill has been successful. May’s power grab has a set back.

By just FOUR votes the government was defeated. How May will be regretting that pointless election tonight.

Parliament will have a meaningful vote on the exit terms.

But don’t be too excited. Brussels might not like this as May can not guarantee the UK will agree to a deal. It means the the EU are negotiating with parliament NOT May now.

There is also the suggestion that the mood of parliament is changing and is beginning to lean more towards a EFTA / EEA type deal.

But equally this could also send us to the brink with a deal from the EU that could be rejected by parliament.

The stakes just got higher.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
41
mrsreynolds · 14/12/2017 10:44

How was their lying - repeatedly - not contempt!!??

howabout · 14/12/2017 10:50

In the context of legalise, DD and contempt of Parliament this is an interesting article discussing the conflicting duties and the dangers inherent in Parliamentary Committees overstepping their privilege.

www.theguardian.com/law/2015/jan/30/contempt-parliament-bluster-threat

Peregrina · 14/12/2017 11:04

I don't think your link howabout singles out lawyers as being out of touch. It does highlight how the Tories in particular, are out of touch with the general population e.g. 2/3 of Cameron's cabinet being millionaires, with May's cabinet similar. 48% of Tory MPs privately educated where fees for day schools are an average of £16,119 p.a. whereas the median wage is £27,600.

LurkingHusband · 14/12/2017 11:46

Julia Hartley-Brewer @JuliaHB1 As a Brexiteer, I didn't vote to bring back power from the EU to the British Parliament. I voted to bring back power to the British people.

Doesn't she self identify as "a bit dim" ?

What she want's is a referendum on how we should leave the EU.

Like a bad YouGov survey, you can only give a prescribed answer ...
(The will of some people.)

She'd probably have enjoyed soviet Russias elections ... now that's what I call democracy.

HashiAsLarry · 14/12/2017 12:00

Those lawyers. They're experts you know? And brexiteers don't like them there experts. They know things.

LurkingHusband · 14/12/2017 12:10

Why do we think a bunch of people with law degrees have a particular view of Parliamentary democracy? Is it perhaps because they understand the nature and relationship between how the courts, parliament and the media hold the executive to account?

Maybe we need to invert the question. What does the man in the street know about how our political and legal systems work ?

Fuck all.

Yup, not taught formally in any stage or level during the compulsory education period (up to 18).

And now we can reap that ignorance with the moronity of Brexiteers.

Compare and contrast with the US where - for what effectiveness it may have - everyone leaves school knowing the constitution, if not understanding it.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. An ignorant population is very easily coerced and cajoled when it's needed.

Maryz · 14/12/2017 12:13

I like that Daily Mail headline.

I think they should be proud of themselves. The Brexit negotiators and the prime minister seem to be so incompetant, it seems to me that any MP who doesn't want to have a say in the decisions they make is a gullible idiot.

prettybird · 14/12/2017 12:16

In Scotland Modern Studies, which includes things like our political institutions and voting systems, is part of the "BGE" (Broad General Education) that is supposed to be taught to the end of S3 (equivalent of Y10) - although some schools like ds' school start the National 5 curriculum at the end of S2.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2017 12:41

In response to JHB

Nick Pettigrew
@Nick_Pettigrew
Yes, but all 67 million of us won’t fit in Parliament. That’s why we have MPs to represent us. Stop me if this is getting too complicated.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2017 12:52

Pointing out the number of lawyers amongst the "rebels" really doesn't help their case.

It very much depends on what type of law they practice in terms of 'out of touch'.

Who do you think defends criminals? Who do you think the families of the 96 went to? Who do you think prosecutes people who commit domestic violence? Who do you think is helping EU citizens in the UK?

There are plenty of lawyers who are probably more in touch with reality than most.

Having an understanding of how democracy is underpinned by the law and how the law protects the vulnerable and those 'who lawyers are out of touch with' isn't something to be scoffed at.

It just shows a reversal of being out of touch with what lawyers do and what they are trained to do. And why many become lawyers in the first place.

OP posts:
woman11017 · 14/12/2017 13:00

Why are does this administration vilify the judiciary?

This just happened:

Home Office policy of deporting homeless EU citizens is illegal, High Court rules

Lawyers say ruling deals a blow to the Government's aim of creating a 'hostile environment' for EU citizens

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/homeless-eu-citizens-deporting-illegal-policy-home-office-high-court-ruling-brexit-stop-a8110001.html

And this is about to happen.
www.crowdjustice.com/case/a50-chall-her-e50/

Most people will be unaware that the validity of the Brexit arrangements, whatever they are, have to go before the European Court of Justice to be signed off. This issue cannot be left unaddressed

Some may see this invalidity case as just a ploy to stop Brexit. However, if we don’t deal with this now, we are storing up trouble - any deal depends on Article 50 and can be struck down at any time if the process was invalid, including after we’ve left. Even a “no deal” Brexit can be struck down

Why else is law important?

"It's all we got", as Piggy says in The Lord of the Flies as might replaces right.

I only learnt about separation of powers doing a law degree (for fun).

It's the bedrock of our precious democracy, and emulated across the world.

Unless you look really hard, it is difficult to learn about the unwritten constitution, EU law alignment, parliamentary procedures, constitutional law or even how to become an MP.

woman11017 · 14/12/2017 13:10

Theresa May faces 'much bigger defeat' as rebels prepare to vote on Brexit date

Anna Soubry, said the Government would be wise to withdraw next week’s amendment on fixing the date: “If it is put to a vote I would expect the Government to have even more difficulty than they had last night
www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-latest-theresa-may-faces-much-bigger-defeat-as-rebels-prepare-to-vote-on-brexit-date-a3719451.html

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2017 13:30

Carole Cadwalladr‏
@carolecadwalla

Yes! Go @DamianCollins. Head of UK fake news inquiry writes to @jack. Twitter's response to UK electoral commission "completely inadequate". "It seems odd..we have received more info from journalists & academics than you." Ultimatum issued: answer by Jan 15. Or else.

twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/941295141326872578

LurkingHusband · 14/12/2017 13:37

The other downside of the occult nature of our political system is it gives people like Melanie Phillips (other reactionary morons are available_ an excuse to parade their ignorance in public, as they did in 2010 ...

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2017 14:57

Jon Stone‏Verified account
@joncstone
Arriving in Brussels, Theresa May says she’s “disappointed” with last night’s vote but says: “We have won 35 out of our 36 votes on the EU withdrawal bill. It is making good progress in the House of Commons."

Laura Kuenssberg‏Verified account
@bbclaurak
Are you going to compromise Prime Minister? ‘I’ve won 35 out of 36 votes’ - not quite the answer last night’s rebels’ would like

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 14/12/2017 15:03

'In 1980, someone died.’

lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2017 15:14

Hmmmm will comments like " I’ve won 35 out of 36 votes" encourage Labour to reconsider their strategy of support? Or is it all a question of timing?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2017 15:23

Robert Peston‏Verified account
@Peston
.@theresa_may will not risk another defeat and will withdraw her own EU (Withdrawal) Bill amendment that would put into law the Brexit date of 29 March 2019. Or at least that’s what Tory MPs tell me. We’ll see. Very high risk to press ahead. Tory rebels showing no remorse

LurkingHusband · 14/12/2017 15:24

I only learnt about separation of powers doing a law degree (for fun).

I learned that as a result of wondering from an early age what made the US system different to the UK. The starting point of which is you need to understand the UK (with a note that England and Wales have different antecedents to Scotland). My interest being more historical than legal.

That said, you really don't need too much background info to appreciate writers such as (the incomparable) P.J. O'Rourke. Who may as well have been describing EU agriculture when he wrote:

There is one kind of interfering in private life that the federal government has been doing for much longer than it has been proscribing narcotics or hectoring poor people, and this is messing around with agriculture. The government began formulating agricultural policy in 1794, when the residents of western Pennsylvania started the Whiskey Rebellion in response to an excise tax on corn liquor. The agricultural policy formulated in 1794 was to shoot farmers. In this case, the federal government may have had it right the first time.

Like that of most Americans of the present generation, my experience with agriculture is pretty much limited to one three-week experiment raising dead marijuana plants under a grow light in the closet of my off-campus apartment. I did, however, once help artificially inseminate a cow. And you can keep your comments to yourself -I was up at the front, holding the thing's head.

This was a dozen years ago. My old friend George, who'd done all sorts of madcap stuff such as join the marines, go to Vietnam, learn to fly a stunt plane and get married, decided to raise cattle. To that end George bought a farm in New Hampshire, along with some cows (the technical term for female cattle), and now it was time for the cattle to fructify.

Getting a cow in a family way is not accomplished, as I would have thought, with a bull and some Barry White tapes in a heart-shaped stall. It's like teenage pregnancy, only more so. The bull isn't even around to get the cow knocked-up. Instead, there's a liquid-nitrogen Thermos bottle full of frozen bull sperm (let's not even think about how they get that) and a device resembling a cross between a gigantic hypodermic needle and the douche nozzle of the gods.

George got a real farmer to come by and actually do the honors. So while I held the cow's head and George held the cow's middle, the real farmer, Pete, took the bovine marital aid and inserted it into a very personal and private place of the cow's. Then Pete squirted liquid dish soap on himself and inserted his right arm into an even more personal and private place of the cow's, all the way up to the elbow. Pete did this not in order to have Robert Mapplethorpe take his photograph, but in order to grasp the inseminator tube through the intestine wall and guide the tube into the mouth of the uterus. It's an alarming thing to watch, and I'm glad to say I didn't watch it because I was at the cow's other end. But I'll tell you this, I will never forget the look on that cow's face.

The same look-and for the same reason-appeared on my own face when I began reading the 1990 omnibus farm bill. Every five years or so the U.S. Congress votes on a package of agricultural legislation that does to the taxpayer what Pete and George and I did to the cow.

lalalonglegs · 14/12/2017 16:50

Here's another depressing deportation story involving a man who has represented England as a boxer. Nigeria - the country he is from - says he can't live there as he is not a citizen so, in effect, he is stateless.

woman11017 · 14/12/2017 16:55

lala petition www.change.org/p/home-office-keep-boxer-kelvin-bilal-fawaz-in-the-uk

LurkingHusband · 14/12/2017 17:04

One thing I'm not a fan of - and which rarely seems to be raised - is this concept of Britishness as a spectrum. British national ? British citizen ? pre 1983 ? Post 1983 ?

Surely you is or you ain't ?

I bet Kelvin is "British" enough to pay tax.

Peregrina · 14/12/2017 17:07

I bet Kelvin is "British" enough to pay tax.

He would be if they allowed him to work. I can't help thinking that being black doesn't help his cause either - recall Zola Budd being fast tracked to citizenship because she could rustle up a British grandparent. I don't actually blame Zola herself, as a 17 year old she was something of a pawn. I do think the sporting bodies behaved disgracefully at the time.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2017 17:10

Dominic Grieve reveals he has received death threats after leading Brexit rebellion

Dominic Grieve, the Conservative MP, has faced death threats after leading a parliamentary rebellion that resulted in the prime minister’s first defeat on Brexit.

The former Tory attorney has reported incidents to the police. Other colleagues who rebelled have also come under pressure. Grieve told the Guardian:

The thing which continues to cause me concern is not that people will disagree vigorously with the positions we take but that the atmosphere is so febrile that it leads firstly to people not listening to what the debate is about, secondly suggests that any questions around Brexit amount to an intention to sabotage and thirdly result in some people expressing themselves in terms that at times include death threats.

Death threats should have no part in the political process of a democracy.

Grieve also questioned the response of some newspapers to the vote, including a front page story from the Daily Mail that claimed 11 Tory “self-consumed malcontents” had betrayed their leader, party and 17.4m Brexit voters and had increased the “possibility of a Marxist in No 10”. Grieve said:

The form of reporting that the Daily Mail adopts is an incitement to obscuring what the issues actually are. That then adds to the atmosphere.

LurkingHusband · 14/12/2017 17:24

It's not enough to be a Tory these days.

You need to be a Daily Mail Tory.

Swipe left for the next trending thread