Westministenders: Rebel Rebel Your Brexit is a Mess.

[RedToothBrush]

Hot Tramp, I love you so!

The European Parliament have agreed to progress talks to the next stage. Despite Brexiteers saying its not legally binding, it is apparent that the EU certainly disagree.

Not only that, but the wording of the deal goes further. It binds us to not being able to agree and new trade deals for 2 years.

The All Important Amendment 7 to the Great Repel Bill has been successful. May’s power grab has a set back.

By just FOUR votes the government was defeated. How May will be regretting that pointless election tonight.

Parliament will have a meaningful vote on the exit terms.

But don’t be too excited. Brussels might not like this as May can not guarantee the UK will agree to a deal. It means the the EU are negotiating with parliament NOT May now.

There is also the suggestion that the mood of parliament is changing and is beginning to lean more towards a EFTA / EEA type deal.

But equally this could also send us to the brink with a deal from the EU that could be rejected by parliament.

The stakes just got higher.

IMF downgrades growth forecast

www.ft.com/content/499115b6-ad90-11e7-beba-5521c713abf4

And where would Canada's financial services be most likely to establish themselves in the EU? My money would have been on the UK given our shared language and past

I wonder if in the future, Quebec will send the UK a Christmas tree to say "thanks for the massive boost to French in Canada", as Canadians flock to France and Belgium.

(Although, having seen Quebecois and French having to communicate in English I remain ... )

Reply to the petition I signed:

*The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Parliament's vote on the Brexit deal must include an option to remain in the EU.”.

Government responded:

The British people voted to leave and the Government will implement their decision.The vote on the final deal will give Parliament the choice to accept the agreement or leave the EU with no agreement.

The result of the referendum held on 23 June 2016 saw a clear majority of people vote to leave the European Union. Parliament overwhelmingly confirmed the result of the referendum, on 8 February, by voting with clear and convincing majorities in both of its Houses for the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill. The Government is clear that it is its duty to deliver on the instruction of the British people and implement the result of the referendum.

The Government has committed to hold a vote on the final deal in Parliament as soon as possible after the negotiations have concluded. The terms of this vote are clear; Parliament will have the choice to accept that deal or to move ahead without a deal.

We are confident that we will get the best possible agreement and one which Parliament will want to support.

Department for Exiting the European Union*

So we're still going with shit or shitter.

And the brexiteers still bang on about how much the EU need us LH. They have no incentive to protect us as they watch business flowing into the remaining 27.

@lurkinghusband I think its much more likely that the French will be flocking to Canada and Quebec in particular in the future.

Barnier laying it out pretty starkly. 'UK can't have an "a la carte" transition'

Apologies if posted previously

But I like this modification ....

Transatlantic relations not providing any solace either

Donald Trump's London visit still uncertain after call with May as tensions continue

• Pair have disagreed over Jerusalem and Trump’s Islamophobic retweets
• Neither US nor UK mention visit in accounts of phone call

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/19/trump-may-jerusalem-phone-call?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=257336&subid=23040383&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen

UK sees Brexit as simple and as an exercise in spin.

EU27 sees Brexit as complex and as an exercise in process.

Almost every problem comes down to this contradiction.

EU27 keeps prevailing because their position is correct.

And UK is left to spin each setback as a victory.

22 replies . 258 retweets 358 likes
Reply 22 Retweet 258 Like 358 Direct message

No I don't think we should sign up not to make trade deals after we've left. The EU is determined we are going to lose out. This is sheer spite. I totally hate them and every day I think that goodness we're leaving.

Eh up. Here's another one. Some cages are rattling somewhere.

Love that lh

No I don't think we should sign up not to make trade deals after we've left.

Has it not dawned on you that the government doesn't care what you think ?

HashiAsLarry

I think that diagram was probably a little bit of wet play at the local primary school.

Sorry class, but since it's too wet outside, we'll have a go at sorting Brexit out. And we can spend the rest of break watching a 14 minute cartoon.

I suspect the hardest part was matching the colours. A few seconds at least.

The terms of this vote are clear; Parliament will have the choice to accept that deal or to move ahead without a deal.

This is so unutterably bloody depressing. There's no fucking hope.

The terms of the vote were NOT clear.Were we leaving participation in Euratom? Erasamus? European aviation safety agency?,Medicines agency ? Losing the banking authority, city of culture? etc etc. The vote was not bloody clear at all.

I really despise the dictatorial, crushing tome of those DeXEU letters. It's just a huge 'stuff you' to half the country.

People are so concerned they've signed a petition or written etc and there's no " We really appreciate your concerns and are trying to address them but...we have to take this into account as well".

It. Is.outrageous. I never thought I'd see the day where our government writes disrespectful ' sod off ' letters to the populace. It's almost the sort of response you'd expect from Mugabe or Idi Amin or some- one like that, on their better days . (Well not quite but you get the gist.)

VivienneMary you make it sound like the EU is being deliberately vindictive which is simply not the case, if anything, they have been more than fair I think given the UKs shambolic negotiating style and our frankly inflammatory press.

Can you not see that it is simply not possible for the EU to grant us special bespoke preferential deals when we will no longer be part of the club or paying for our membership, as that would be very unfair to the other 27 members who are staying in. Barnier has been upfront and explicit about this from the outset.

Viviennemary

No I don't think we should sign up not to make trade deals after we've left. The EU is determined we are going to lose out. This is sheer spite. I totally hate them and every day I think that goodness we're leaving.

As the post just above yours says, unlike the UK, the EU sees the negotiations as a "exercise in process". So they are just following the legal process set in train by our request to leave. It's nothing to do with them being spitefully determined to see us lose out, it's just following the prescribed legal pathway as it's been mandated to do by its own citizens.

How you can whip this up into "hate" is beyond me.

Jennifer Rankin@JenniferMerode
Spain has effective veto on Gibraltar, Barnier confirms. "We have always worked with the view that there has to be consensus and unity."
A50 is QMV in theory.
12:28 PM - Dec 20, 2017

The EU is determined we are going to lose out. This is sheer spite.

Heinlein's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Viviennemary I really hate to single you out but I'm going to have to.

I don't know quite what the correct rhetorical term is but this linguistic thing (which I think also indicates how you actually think) of 'personalising' the EU is so, so inappropriate.

The EU is not an acquaintance, colleague, family member or friend. The series of trade and political negotiations that are Brexit is not similar - in quality, quantity or kind - to an interpersonal dispute or transaction.

To try and conceptualise Brexit in terms drawn from the sphere of interpersonal relationships is not simply to 'dumb it down', it is to miss, entirely, what this is about. It is a qualitative misrepresentation which obscures truth.

I've said this before: I understand analogy - it can make complex situations graspable and provide the opportunity for new perspectives on an issue. However, it can also fundamentally obscure reality to the point where the truth is obscured so greatly that it is a whisker's breath from actual falsehood (the 'whisker's breath' of distance lying, I suppose, in the lack of actual intention to deceive).

The EU is not acting out of spite. The EU is an alliance of heterogenous interests, for a start. It is an organisation without unified purpose and intent - particularly in the emotional sphere - other than to produce and operate a common political and economic agenda of mutual self-interest.

If there is a purpose, it is to ensure Brexit doesn't destabilise that agenda of pursuing allied economic and political interests.

Imputing 'spite' renders something very complex into terms so simplistic as to be banal.

My guess is that this notion of 'spite' comes into operation in order to protect people who use this cognitive model from recognising that this is far, far larger than any situation they may have encountered in the domestic sphere of their lives. It also helps to preserve from a recognition that Brexit is disinterestedly damaging for the UK. I notice that it also places the EU in the role of being some kind of unreasonable authority figure, which is the source of harm. Again, I would say this acts to cognitively protect the user of this term from recognition of their own autonomy and actions in bringing about economic and political harm to the UK. Far easier to believe that the EU is some sort of 'cruel adult'.

The EU is negotiating with the UK en bloc. It is a network of interests and groups. Each point in this network are determined upon these negotiations producing the most favourable terms for themselves. 'Spite' has no place in such a complex negotiation. For a start there is no unified 'mind' that could produce such an emotional intention.

I find the urge to trivialise these negotiations into terms more fitting for a local dispute with a neighbour who doesn't look after his fence really quite strange and baffling.

How you can whip this up into "hate" is beyond me.

This is someone who, on another thread, felt the need to repeatedly and vindictively put down nurses. I get the impression hate is their only setting.

Now if substitute Donald Trump for the EU and actions motivated by spite, then yes.

The Government has committed to hold a vote on the final deal in Parliament as soon as possible after the negotiations have concluded. The terms of this vote are clear; Parliament will have the choice to accept that deal or to move ahead without a deal.

I'm pretty sure that this does not constitute a meaningful vote as laid out in the amendment that was recently passed against the government's wishes. Now I can understand that Davis may wish to try and pretend that this vote never happened, but it did and the principles behind it, as expressed by the Tory rebels, were pretty clear. A meaningful vote is not one where the only option is to leave with an unacceptable deal or leave with no deal.

Seriously, Davis and May have a serious denial problem and I don't think it will help them in regaining the support and trust of the more moderate members of their party.

But, but, but... . Vivienne, the EU are giving the UK what they (qualify this one) want. To be a third country. Or do you think that the UK had a pretty privileged position as a member state and want to try to reproduce this again? You know the relatively minute member state contribution considering the manifold benefits and economic gains it reaped. All while an equal voice in the decision making and steering of the EU..

BiglyBadgers

You know, I'd never thought about it before, but brexit and loss of free movement must be such a massive pain in the arse for touring orchestras, theatres and such like. It's going to make EU tours so much more work and expense, not to mention having to get visas sorted for musicians and such like. I'm not surprised they aren't big fans.

This is incredibly true.

In fact, it's a huge problem for the creative industry generally. An industry routinely laughed at as though it's a bit of a joke - all those ineffective arty and creative types, right? - but is actually a huge wealth- generator for the UK.

It's already been hammered by Brexit.

That relocation of an orchestra to Europe is the tip of an iceberg. Companies are finding it hard to recruit and pay staff - particularly companies that operated at a world-class level (because then you need to pick from world-class talent).

Some parts of the creative industry are not those that spring to mind when thinking of 'creatives' (eg. car design). The carefully constructed relationship between higher education and these industries, ensuring a flow of world-class graduate talent into UK industries, has already been battered, and will be battered more.

The drying-up of the flow of incoming talent has already started, the impact of sterling's drop has already had an effect, but visas + a hostile attitude towards immigration is going to be a real barrier to growth.

And we have Ian Duncan Smith's incredibly mature response of 'Suck it up.'

You know it is the Breixiteers who are the epitome of 'talking the country down'. They are thrashing the standing of the UK. Like a bunch of crooks.