Westministenders: Rebel Rebel Your Brexit is a Mess.

[RedToothBrush]

Hot Tramp, I love you so!

The European Parliament have agreed to progress talks to the next stage. Despite Brexiteers saying its not legally binding, it is apparent that the EU certainly disagree.

Not only that, but the wording of the deal goes further. It binds us to not being able to agree and new trade deals for 2 years.

The All Important Amendment 7 to the Great Repel Bill has been successful. May’s power grab has a set back.

By just FOUR votes the government was defeated. How May will be regretting that pointless election tonight.

Parliament will have a meaningful vote on the exit terms.

But don’t be too excited. Brussels might not like this as May can not guarantee the UK will agree to a deal. It means the the EU are negotiating with parliament NOT May now.

There is also the suggestion that the mood of parliament is changing and is beginning to lean more towards a EFTA / EEA type deal.

But equally this could also send us to the brink with a deal from the EU that could be rejected by parliament.

The stakes just got higher.

Andrew_Adonis
GOVT PLAN TO PACK LORDS: Tories already have 53 more peers than Labour, a far larger lead either than their share of the vote or their share of Commons seats justifies. So this is a straightforward bid to swamp Lords. So much for ‘parliamentary sovereignty’!

I read somewhere (can't remember where now) that if we brexit and then want to rejoin we may have a problem rejoining because our system might not be democratic enough, basically because of the lords.

It doesn't matter how many times I read about it my mind is still blown by the fact that the cabinet has not yet agreed even the basic direction it wants to go in with brexit, let alone have a plan for what it wants to achieve. How can they negotiate when they have no idea if they even want alignment or something completely different?

I thought at the time of the key cabinet appointments like Boris there was some clever strategic thinking going on. Having a predictably divided cabinet now seems less clever ?

It beggars belief, Bigly. But, you know, they did give an assurance that they would discuss the matter again in 2018 .

Any history buffs might like this.

You may wish to ensure you have something to protect the TV from a Bill Grundy style foot in disgust when you hear BoJo praising democracy ...

They discussed it for an hour and a half though so it’s all good!

An hour and half for the future of our entire country. Yup that sounds about right.

Brexit war cabinet on future relationship ended without agreement, I understand.

They either have to agree for now to keep in alignment with the EU to protect the GFA keep the DUP on board. Of course, a couple of by-elections lost could mean that the DUP won't have the numbers to save them, in which case, they will immediately be thrown under the bus. Major had a majority of 20 I believe and by the time his five years were up, he'd lost the lot.

Of course, a couple of by-elections lost could mean that the DUP won't have the numbers to save them, in which case, they will immediately be thrown under the bus. Major had a majority of 20 I believe and by the time his five years were up, he'd lost the lot.

In the aftermath of the election, the pressure of being in - and trying to maintain - a minority government was discussed. With every MP from the minority having to be ready - at a moments notice - to drop everything to get to a vote. That level of stress on a population of - say 313 - must be immense. Of course the HoC bars provide a short term solution ... but in the long run ....

Although it's not just losing a Tory or DUP MP that's problematic ... any by-election provides for a deluge of statistics and soundings which might point the way forward.

It won't make a great lot of difference if an SNP or PC seat goes to Labour or vice versa. I will be interested to see what happens in those areas which have Local Govt elections next May. It might give some clue as to which way things are moving.

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Faisal Islam
Faisal Islam
@faisalislam
PM: I think [a second referendum] would be betraying the British people, Parliament gave them the vote, up to us to deliver”

Jo Maugham QC
Jo Maugham QC
@JolyonMaugham
If the people want to Remain how does it "betray" them to listen? If they want a vote how does it "betray" them to have one?

This is the troubling language of those who sit aloof from democracy.

It won't make a great lot of difference if an SNP or PC seat goes to Labour or vice versa.

Not to the overall constitution of parliament, admittedly. It's more the underlying swings that would be fascinating ... especially if they hint at a collapse in the Tory vote.

It's worth bearing in mind that not all Tory voters are hardline Brexiteers. In fact, it's entirely possible that 1 or 2 in a thousand might not be so keen on Brexit.

Y'know, this politics malarkey is fascinating. You can spend time reading, learning, understanding, asking questions, debating, formulating your thoughts, your views, your desires, your wishes; weighing them against what's on offer, what might be, what's happening elsewhere, what might happen elsewhere. You carefully look at the people involved, their views, their background, their vision. And after all that, you carefully craft everything into a single "X", putting your message of expression into the bottle of the polling booth before casting it onto the waters of fortune.

Or you could just vote the same as you did last time. The outcome is usually no different, and you've saved a lot of time to talk about Bake Off versus Strictly.

PM: I think [a second referendum] would be betraying the British people, Parliament gave them the vote, up to us to deliver”

This of course goes back to the question which Amber Rudd said she didn't understand: how long does the mandate for the Referendum last? In General Elections we can take it to be 5 years. It seems not unreasonable to assume that this mandate will only last as long as that.

I note that May isn't too concerned about delivering on promises to the NHS.

... SINTRAN... :) though @mistigirl was referring to commercial software so should complain to whoever she bought it from? (sorry but..)

My view, which counts for very little, is that the referendum result retains its validity until polling calls it seriously into question. That hasn’t happened yet.

To be fair it is commercial in that Mumsnet is a profit marking organisation as far as I'm aware. We might not be paying for it, but we are the market that is sold to advertiser's.

Sorry, that was to Frankeistein and completely off topic.

And it should have said 'profit making organisation'.

Until the last election my DH had always voted Tory, he wasn't/isn't in favour of Brexit and thinks the current situation is a total mess. He isn't as emotionally European as I am, I think maybe an English/Scottish divide, but economically he is completely commited to the idea. He would be quite happy with another referendum. A good mix of friends were Tory voters and they all seem the think along the same lines. They have no interest in a Corbyn government but would consider voting Labour as a one off to stay in Europe, but of course they aren't being offered anything like that, Corbyn is pretty much as weak on Europe as May is, perhaps worse. There were plenty of anti Brexit younger Tory voters who don't want a harder left government, working in business and the like.

The SNP have a much clear position on Brexit than Labour does and a mUch harder one so I think it does make some difference is seats go to them or Labour.

Actually it does. Unless the SNP plans to stand candidates south of the border, it’s mathematically impossible for them ever to form a majority in the HoC.

Ah. Sorry misread does as doesn’t. I see what you’re saying.

I have a feeling Labour could adopt a more definitive stance if it becomes clear that doing so isn’t a vote loser. Sad, but true.

I bloody love John Bercow

@faisalislam
Speaker Bercow:
“Making death threats or other threats of violence will always be wrong, in a political context, making death threats against people for their views is a kind of fascism, unequivocally denounced... ”
Bercow: “The Chair is calling upon members to vote as they think fit... they have an absolute bound and duty to vote as they think fit...
In voting as you think fit, you as MPs are never mutineers, never traitors, never malcontents, never enemies of the people”
Bercow: “if there are people who cannot understand that perhaps they need help to ensure that in future they do”

Strong stuff:

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
The dossier of death and hanging threats to Anna Soubry after last week’s vote is absolutely extraordinary - people who have left phone numbers and addresses in Kent, Warwickshire etc...
No better when its anonymous bots, but that people feel comfortable enough to threaten violence against MPs because they have voted a specific way on a Commons vote is a remarkable development...

Amber Rudd: everyone in this House condemns this - we can not be in this situation where people are put off from debate because of this abuse...
Rudd: "this will never be allowed to become the new norm - behaviour not acceptable and the responsibility of everyone to call it out"...

Soubry has given her two dossiers to the Speaker, specifically cites recent Daily Mail and Telegraph headlines, which she says have led to some of the violent threats against her

Dominic Grieve directly criticising the Daily Mail too: "We are going to have to stand up for decency in public discourse and face it down"

Rudd: "we're going to call this out and ask for a new type of behaviour"

Harriet Harman: "the Telegraph and Mail identifying certain members as targets.. the mob following.. in other countries when violence is threatened because of how they voted we call that tyranny and fascism"
HArman calls on Home Secretary Rudd to call in the editors of the Mail and the Telegraph...

Cooper: Home Sec should challenge national newspapers if they do things which also incite death threats impacting on public debate... invites Rudd to say Mail was wrong re calling MPs "treacherous"

Rudd: real problem is the attackers
Rudd - "we are now in an era where MPs are beginning to report hate threats, threats of violence as the new normal, and that is what we need their assistance stepping down from"

so @sandbach ... "not helped by members of this House calling for deselections.. members democratically elected by constituents are entitled to vote with conscience"
Apparent reference to her fellow Conservative Nadine Dorries.

Speaker Bercow:
“Making death threats or other threats of violence will always be wrong, in a political context, making death threats against people for their views is a kind of fascism, unequivocally denounced... ”
Bercow: “The Chair is calling upon members to vote as they think fit... they have an absolute bound and duty to vote as they think fit...
In voting as you think fit, you as MPs are never mutineers, never traitors, never malcontents, never enemies of the people”
Bercow: “if there are people who cannot understand that perhaps they need help to ensure that in future they do”

In other news:
Kay Burley‏ @KayBurley
Britain First Leaders Jayda Fransen and Paul Golding have been suspended by Twitter

Yvette Cooper‏ @YvetteCooperMP
So @Twitter finally suspend Britain First - the day before social media cos appear at @CommonsHomeAffs .Why does it take a Parliamentary hearing to make them do the right thing?

Louise Mensch‏ @LouiseMensch
Twitter is deleting fascist accounts because social media companies, including Twitter, have to face a committee hearing in the UK Parliament tomorrow.
@UKLabour senior MP @YvetteCooperMP asks a question we all should be asking