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Brexit

Westminstenders: Sucking up to the 'enemy'

979 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2017 18:09

Phil Hammond called the EU the enemy. Then retracted it. A classic political move, to pitch to one group and then say you didn't mean it after all.

This is the UK's negotiation strategy. Because the negotiation isn't really with the EU. Its the ongoing debate over the what leaving the EU actually means since it wasn't officially defined prior to the referendum and has been left to politicians to say its one thing to persuade people to support them and then decided no that's not really what they meant after all.

The whole thing makes it impossible for the EU to respond to us, because we don't appear to know what we want.

The EU have been explicit in their position. So things they can not do because of the limitations of trade rules and EU law. Its possible work arounds could be possible for some things - but certainly not all which too many Brexiteers fail to acknowledge.

And then there is the a50 deadline which is like a snake coiled around May's neck slowly strangling her. A self imposed screwing of our negotiating position. One that kills off our Brexit options and ups the stakes into a brinkmanship battle - not with the EU but between the hardlines and the sane. Its not even about remaining, though that option might well end up being the only option left on the table through our own folly, rather than out of EU malice.

The longer we take to work out what we want the higher the stake become and the more we destroy the foundations of our economy in the meantime, even if we do stay in.

We have only just noticed that we've lost money worth 25% of our GDP and we have no net assets anymore, when in early 2016 we had significant assets. Project Fear they said was wrong. Well was it?

We are flat broke as a nation.

Then there is the Great Repel Bill. The Bill was supposed to be in the Commons this week. It was delayed a week due to the sheer number of amendments. There are nearly a dozen with enough Tory rebels to make them stick. Including one for parliament to have a meaningful vote on what option we take - including no deal. If parliament rejected this, we would be left in a situation where we sure as hell better hope a50 is reversible or we could end up unlawfully leave the EU by accident!

And the Lords could be fun for the Repel Bill. The Labour whip has vowed to examine every amendment properly even if the commons don't. And they are free and within their rights to do so.

Still May could exit stage left. Or left with egg all over her face as she has to suck up to the 'enemy' for being such a tool for the last 18months, because she hasn't made progress on the negotiations that really matter. The Tory party ones.

Whichever way you cut it, you can be sure on only one thing: it will go to the wire for both. And possibly beyond with an eleventh hour extension to prevent chaos.

There are hints that the public mood might be changing. Not fast enough. Yet. Interest rates? A break in the triple lock? Phil's budget sure will be interesting. Especially as Brexiteers want money to prepare and protect us from a no deal scenario which they also tell us will be just fine and won't be a problem. Bye Bye NHS, don't get flu this winter. As a note once infamously said: 'There's no many left'.

We are Greece. Only worse. And out of pressure and deadlines we alone created. We just haven't realised it. Yet.

And if this doesn't make you cringe and brace yourself in horror:

Danny Kemp‏ @dannyctkemp
May wants to take the floor at EU summit dinner on Thursday to explain Brexit policy to fellow leaders, senior official says

Just remember her party speech and think: What could possibly go wrong...

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lonelyplanetmum · 24/10/2017 07:11

Hester - I thought that letter on the petition asking for impact assessments was interesting.It says they have a plan to build a national consensus around their negotiating position!! Really? Wonder when that plan is starting then?
This is a shift of tone from the other letters from DexEU which usually deceitfully say 80% of people voted for a party supporting the exit in the last general election.

Also what are cross cutting regulations?
Also it is standard practice to publish impact assessments.

"The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “The Government must publish its own Brexit Impact/Risk assessments

The Department for Exiting the European Union, working with officials across Government, is undertaking a wide range of analysis covering the entirety of the UK economy in order to support negotiations. We are looking at over 50 sectors as well as areas of cross-cutting regulations.

Stakeholder engagement is a central element of our plan to build a national consensus around our negotiating position...

Parliament will have a say on the final deal we achieve with the European Union as we will put that deal to a vote in both Houses before it comes into force. We will, of course, continue to support Parliament in its scrutiny role throughout the negotiating stage. It is not standard practice to provide an ongoing commentary on internal analytical work that is being carried out within government..."

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200634?reveal_response=yes

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2017 07:47

A foretaste of how Brexit can reduce some prices in the very short term .... as companies going bust sell off their stock

Someone from my old gym just forwarded me an EM that her employer is sending out:

"Please be advised that we are in the process of winding up our company XXXXXXX- UK Ltd , due mainly to the sharp decline in the value of the £ versus the US $

and have reduced all our UK stock to “HALF PRICE”.....
As there is currently no other UK supplier we suggest that you take advantage so that you have your favourites as long as possible.
Thank you for your past support."

HesterThrale · 24/10/2017 09:01

Yes lonelyplanetmum an interesting letter. But also enraging. We should have the right to know what might happen as a result of Brexit. These studies were undertaken with taxpayers' money.

So... if they say 'It would not be appropriate, however, to publish details that could undermine the UK's negotiating position with the EU', is that a tacit admission that the projections are BAD?

I mean, if they all pointed to sunlit uplands, I bet they'd publish them!

Cailleach1 · 24/10/2017 09:05

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/23/uk-likely-to-end-up-with-canadian-style-deal-warns-michel-barnier

If you were in pharmaceuticals or the car industry, you'd be thinking about your plan B. In some instances, it would have to be put into action now to be ready. Or Services. Services are not covered by the WTO. There may not be mutual recognition of professional qualifications either.

If the Cabinet have seen reports about how adverse an effect it will have on the country and plough on regardless, I hope they have to answer to a court somewhere along the line. It would be criminal.

I really think the desired outcome of some of those Brexiteers (erg etc.) is to destroy the EU. They don't hold sway and influence it. They don't just want out, they want the whole house to be burnt down. Scorched earth. I'm sure their dodgy special friends throughout the US and Russia world would like the same outcome.

Cailleach1 · 24/10/2017 09:10

Oh, and the agreement would have to be ratified by every country. So a region like Wallonia, too.

HesterThrale · 24/10/2017 09:13

Also, (me going on about the 50 impact studies again!), who exactly has access to, or has read them?
Just the Cabinet and senior ranking DExEU officials? Other senior Tories? More MPs in general?
I want to know, because when this whole sorry affair has finished, and ALL of the shit has hit ALL of the fans, those people have to be held accountable.

We should be told who voted for our country to be signed up for this self-destruction, even with prior knowledge of the impact studies. They will be held responsible.
Maybe people are already covering their backs. Maybe some don't want to know the full predictions...

Right, I'll go and lie down in my dark shed now.

Cailleach1 · 24/10/2017 09:16

He said: “The two phases are difficult. The second will be very different and will last several years. It is truly unique because instead of promoting regulatory convergence, it will aim to frame a difference. It will involve risks, including about its political ratification, making all the more necessary transparency around these topics.”

No, Michel. If it is risky, the Con's say you have to hide it from the electorate. The difference will be the UK electorate won't get to vote for a deal that was nowhere on the ballot paper. May still saying what people voted for was to be out of the single market and the customs union. Soon they will have voted for Ceta or whatever unknown outcome. Maybe they also voted for certainty, the Cons forever, and there is no need to ever have another general election.

Cailleach1 · 24/10/2017 09:27

Cons not Con's. Who put that apostrophe there?

ElenaGreco123 · 24/10/2017 09:27

I am so glad this has finally made the news

Universities deplore ‘McCarthyism’ as MP demands list of tutors lecturing on Brexit

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/24/universities-mccarthyism-mp-demands-list-brexit-chris-heaton-harris

prettybird · 24/10/2017 09:33

It was a long time ago now but one of the reasons my parents chose NZ over Canada to emigrate to (they both had health systems sufficiently close to the NHS-free-at-point-of use to be acceptable to my dad's principles) was that he wouldn't have to resit his exams in NZ. Mum drew the line after all the effort, hours and sacrifice he had gone through sitting his Radiology exams! Grin

TheElementsSong · 24/10/2017 10:09

Universities deplore ‘McCarthyism’ as MP demands list of tutors lecturing on Brexit

Yes, I was waiting and waiting... our Westministenders thread was way ahead!

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2017 10:17

Jim Waterson‏*@jimwaterson*

Baby boomers, man.

We've had the undeserving poor. We've had the undeserving single parent. We've had the undeserving disabled. We've had the undeserving working family. We've had the undeserving student and young people.

Now its time for the undeserving pensioner.

Westminstenders: Sucking up to the 'enemy'
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thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2017 10:25

I've been waiting for that. RTB.

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2017 10:29

Elements, well it wasn't hard to know it would be inevitable.

Authoritarianism ALWAYS attacks education.
Without fail.

Academics know this.

The irony is the require will include every law course. Probably every agricultural course. Every business course. Every media course....

I don't know how you could teach a whole pile of degree level subjects without talking about Brexit or the EU!!!!

I hope they get the answer they deserve.

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SwedishEdith · 24/10/2017 10:46

Also, (me going on about the 50 impact studies again!), who exactly has access to, or has read them?

And when where they written? I sometimes wonder if they were pre-ref and favour Leave so were suppressed. I cannot believe there has been no whistleblower yet.

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2017 10:47

Cat, well the undeserving pensioner was also always going to happen too.

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RedToothBrush · 24/10/2017 10:48

Swedish - apparently the fear is the official secrets act.

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SwedishEdith · 24/10/2017 10:55

Civil servants have leaked before though when deemed to be public interest. Just slightly surprised not happened yet.

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2017 10:56

The Jared O'Mara fallout is not getting any prettier.

After being exposed as a sexist pig and being forced to resign from the women's and equalities committee (which Phillip Davis is STILL on and isn't being forced out by his party and the opposition), some one has pointed out that he has only asked three questions in parliament:

www.theyworkforyou.com/search/?pid=25636&pop=1#n4

That's not a good look and does play to all the criticisms of the far left.

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LurkingHusband · 24/10/2017 11:14

Authoritarianism ALWAYS attacks education.

...and eventually a low educated populace cannot defend itself. Remember the Manhattan project was given a huge boost by all the scientists that Hitler forced out of Germany.

HesterThrale · 24/10/2017 11:35

Swedish, according to this article, David Davis commissioned the Brexit impact studies 'earlier this year'. A bit late really.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/865974/brexit-legal-threat-mep-release-impact-studies/amp

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2017 11:36

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/uk-wants-cozy-science-ties-eu-after-brexit

The U.K. government today released a long-awaited position paper on the future of scientific collaborations with the European Union after Brexitt*.
Its overarching goal is “a more ambitious and close partnership with the EU than any yet agreed between the EU and a non-EU country.”

< same old waffle as for business & industry >
....
John Womersley, who directs the European Spallation Source in Lund, Sweden, said in a statementt* that
“the paper is so lacking implementation details that it will probably disappoint most of the science community rather than reassure them.”

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2017 11:37

Thanks Hester.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2017 11:46

R North wasn't mincing words yesterday about Fox & no deal

Brexit: the liar Fox and friends

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86644

This malign fool Grin went on to say that,
"If we have no deal and we trade on current WTO terms, that’s the basis not only that Britain trades with countries like the United States,
but that the EU trades with the rest of the world in most circumstances"

< that is outrageous lying >

The thing is that Fox knows that his claim is false – that it's a lie.

He has been briefed personally by senior members of the Civil Service, orally and in writing Angry

And, less than eight months ago, one of the most senior civil servants dealing with Brexit at the time,
told the Brexit select committeee^ that no major economy traded with the EU solely on World Trade Organisation terms
....
Further, the lie that he promulgates is easily countered.
The European Union treaty data database is in the public domain and is easily accessible onlinee* and the summary of agreements is listed here.
You can see the agreements between the EU and the United States of America listed from page 322, and China from page 74

Holliewantstobehot · 24/10/2017 12:02

Surely the EU will have done their own impact studies on a no deal brexit. After all if you're negotiating with someone you need to know what effect it will have on them so as to push for the best deal for yourself. I think they must be terrible which begs the question why so many Tories are still happy to consider no deal.

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