Westminstenders: Sucking up to the 'enemy'

[RedToothBrush]

Phil Hammond called the EU the enemy. Then retracted it. A classic political move, to pitch to one group and then say you didn't mean it after all.

This is the UK's negotiation strategy. Because the negotiation isn't really with the EU. Its the ongoing debate over the what leaving the EU actually means since it wasn't officially defined prior to the referendum and has been left to politicians to say its one thing to persuade people to support them and then decided no that's not really what they meant after all.

The whole thing makes it impossible for the EU to respond to us, because we don't appear to know what we want.

The EU have been explicit in their position. So things they can not do because of the limitations of trade rules and EU law. Its possible work arounds could be possible for some things - but certainly not all which too many Brexiteers fail to acknowledge.

And then there is the a50 deadline which is like a snake coiled around May's neck slowly strangling her. A self imposed screwing of our negotiating position. One that kills off our Brexit options and ups the stakes into a brinkmanship battle - not with the EU but between the hardlines and the sane. Its not even about remaining, though that option might well end up being the only option left on the table through our own folly, rather than out of EU malice.

The longer we take to work out what we want the higher the stake become and the more we destroy the foundations of our economy in the meantime, even if we do stay in.

We have only just noticed that we've lost money worth 25% of our GDP and we have no net assets anymore, when in early 2016 we had significant assets. Project Fear they said was wrong. Well was it?

We are flat broke as a nation.

Then there is the Great Repel Bill. The Bill was supposed to be in the Commons this week. It was delayed a week due to the sheer number of amendments. There are nearly a dozen with enough Tory rebels to make them stick. Including one for parliament to have a meaningful vote on what option we take - including no deal. If parliament rejected this, we would be left in a situation where we sure as hell better hope a50 is reversible or we could end up unlawfully leave the EU by accident!

And the Lords could be fun for the Repel Bill. The Labour whip has vowed to examine every amendment properly even if the commons don't. And they are free and within their rights to do so.

Still May could exit stage left. Or left with egg all over her face as she has to suck up to the 'enemy' for being such a tool for the last 18months, because she hasn't made progress on the negotiations that really matter. The Tory party ones.

Whichever way you cut it, you can be sure on only one thing: it will go to the wire for both. And possibly beyond with an eleventh hour extension to prevent chaos.

There are hints that the public mood might be changing. Not fast enough. Yet. Interest rates? A break in the triple lock? Phil's budget sure will be interesting. Especially as Brexiteers want money to prepare and protect us from a no deal scenario which they also tell us will be just fine and won't be a problem. Bye Bye NHS, don't get flu this winter. As a note once infamously said: 'There's no many left'.

We are Greece. Only worse. And out of pressure and deadlines we alone created. We just haven't realised it. Yet.

And if this doesn't make you cringe and brace yourself in horror:

Danny Kemp‏ @dannyctkemp
May wants to take the floor at EU summit dinner on Thursday to explain Brexit policy to fellow leaders, senior official says

Just remember her party speech and think: What could possibly go wrong...

Never ever been asked for ID/proof residency despite having a German surname. Maybe the approach is different in Scotland.

Don't think I've ever been asked for ds' school when he's been to A&E (3 times without us, when he's been in the care of other people his aunt , once with his dad broke his leg in the school playing ground the day after coming back from a week's skiing holiday , and once with me when he broke his collarbone at rugby training). He has a different surname to me but is very olive skinned and dark eyed ship wrecked Spaniard somewhere in his ancestry, we think

Apparently 76% say Brexit negotiations aren't working, but personally I still don't believe a second referendum would be a good idea, given the potential for media lies and social media manipulation by external agencies. And when you read further into it, it seems that a good percentage of people (33%) think no deal would be good or no different.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-public-go-badly-leave-eu-remainer-brexiteer-no-deal-theresa-may-trade-deal-economy-a8011771.html

Perversely, I'm looking forward to being challenged (with a rather obvious furrin name). If so, it would be the first time ever .

If I am, I'll start with my non-UK passport, and see what they make of it.

Apparently 76% say Brexit negotiations aren't working, but personally I still don't believe a second referendum would be a good idea

The first problem with another referendum would be, is it binding and is there a threshold?

Do they just have someone who is sitting in an office , reading down a list of names , going 'that one sounds a bit foreign ' ?

I suspect that is exactly what they have. If the government wants everyone to prove their entitlement to NHS care, the only way to do that is through an ID card system - for everyone in the UK, not just us forriners. Otherwise you get situations like the one in Cambridge, where anyone whose name sounds a bit non-British gets hounded and everyone else (including expat pensioners illegally nipping back for free treatment) gets away with it.

Exactly lonelyplanetmum.
But I think the only way the Tories would do anything that might reverse Brexit is if they thought they had a better chance of holding on to power if they did.
Personally I think either way they're screwed. (In time anyway, not quite yet.)

The second problem with another Referendum would be that we can't trust the right wing press not to whip up further anti-EU hysteria.

I hope the Tories are screwed....... can't happen soon enough as far as I am concerned.

The only way to do that is through an ID card system - for everyone in the UK, not just us forriners.

This is one of the roots of the problem, if I understand it correctly other European countries have ID cards which make it easier to monitor illegal overstayers etc. However the same people in the UK who are so concerned about forriners, are resistant to an ID system. Although if you've seen that social media video of people from Barnsley complaining about forriners I just don't think any system would work to assuage the xenophobia.

It's a pity the Cambridge newspaper can't do a bit more investigation to find out whether pregnant women with British only surnames have been sent the same letter. Especially when you read the comments underneath - xenophobic? Oh no, they all cry! You could have fooled me.

A second referendum would be tainted by the lies of the first. There are many many people over the whole country who are still completely brainwashed by the Leave message. We can’t undo that. The right wing propaganda rags would simply trot out the same bullshit.

Government by referendum is completely discredited. Trying to fix the mess caused by the first one by holding a second is throwing good money after bad.

There is no substitute for Parliament - outsourcing major decisions to the people, who don’t really understand the issues or the consequences, and are easily manipulable, simply doesn’t need work.

A second Leave vote would be a nail in our coffin, while a vote to Remain would not only cause havoc - with no strong leader to steady the ship - it probably wouldn’t be accepted by Leavers. Then what, another one?

Red posted a while back on the role local papers play in a healthy democracy. Seems like they could be very important right now:

^No Bristol Airport flights or cancer treatment and rotting food at Avonmouth – what a EU 'no deal' looks like
Brexit talk with the EU are still deadlocked, with the Government preparing for life without a deal^

www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/no-bristol-airport-flights-cancer-657910#ICID=sharebar_twitter

Pro EU conference and lobby of MPs this Tuesday:

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/pro-eu-conference-tickets-38574745101?invite=&err=49&referrer=&discount=&affiliate=&eventpassword=

And a little film about Sir Nicholas Winton, British hero, who quietly saved hundreds of refugee lives the second last time fear and xenophobia took grip.

One of my In-Law cousins posted on FB that she had been asked for her passport at the doctors. I know she voted for Brexit (because "immigration"), I bit back my reply of "Isn't that what you voted for?"

I wish I hadn't now.

The opacity, confusion and apparent randomness of rules on showing ID, accessing healthcare, education and residency makes the space for racist opportunists in officialdom. It's very bad for human rights. It's fundamentally anti European values. Alongside the inadequacy of May's administration and the mess of 'brexit, I'm sure this state racism is what's driving away billions of pounds worth of trade and business now.

"I think A and E might generally ask about schools in case they suspect the child has a suspicious injury and then they could contact the school."
Gulp. Do you think that's why my ds was asked? 'Thankfully' the accident happened at school.

What if it’s the school that’s causing the injuries?

Fwiw asking fir your citizenship has been on NHS forms for a few years now. That was along side comments that youogjg have to lay fur the treatment.
Fwiw my dad (French) has had no issue at all.
BUT if he had to prove he is able to receive NHS treatment, Im not sure how he could have done it.
Is being on the NHS list and having a NHS number not enough?

And yes I know quite a few Brits who do not have a passport.
Driving licence says nothing (I have a British driving licence even
Though I'm not British).
How are those people going to prove they are British? Unless of course passports are now compulsory of course.

@alexebarker
1/ So what did the 27 EU leaders say about Brexit in their summit room? And what does it mean for talks? A thread
2/ Once summit conclusions were agreed (90 secs) the main question was Theresa May, her weakness and whether she deserved help.
3/ The notetakers were sent out. This was as sensitive as a summit gets - a leader's life-expectancy and what follows if they're toppled
4/ It was arguably one of the most interesting political debates on Brexit among the 27 since the referendum
5/ Three or four leaders advocated lending May a helping hand - or at least not pushing her to breaking point
6/ To them she was the best prime minister on offer (cf Boris) and the best hope of a smooth and orderly Brexit
7/ Others were reluctant to be drawn into the vortex of Westminster. The days of EU being used to resolve Tory party wars were over
8/ Angela Merkel of Germany was among those supporting a more cautious approach and the divorce-first sequence to negotiations
9/ The chancellor also questioned how we would know something had changed on Brexit day if there was a standstill transition
10/ Michel Barnier ended the discussion by raising the option (again) of using transition talks to help close a divorce deal
11/ But as chief negotiator he stressed he was in the hands of the leaders.
12/ And the consensus still appeared for a clearly phased approach. May had not yet done enough.
13/ That suggests it is for the UK to move next on a financial settlement. The talk is of another E30bn or so. That will be painful.
14/ But the more positive EU tone suggests they are ready to help May in the final stretch of a deal, if she moves first
15/ How would that work? There are three main options.
16/ One is for divorce talks to continue in parallel with the EU's prep work on transition/trade. By Dec, the two sides could jump at once
17/ Option2 is a conditional offer: UK will pay RAL (30bn) but tie details to transition terms. That might open transition talks before Dec
18/ Option three is the hard way: forcing a crisis in November, then trying to patch it up. High risk.
19/ We're entering a crucial few weeks in the Brexit story. But we've not even reached the hard part: the future relationship.
20/ Just think of the UK cabinet discussion when sufficient progress is made and the EU say: congrats! Now what do you want?

How are those people going to prove they are British
there's one type of government which makes people 'prove' they're sick or incapacitated enough to get 'benefits', good enough parents, have legal status to live in the country, and it ain't a democracy, folks.

The NHS has been resistant for years and years to ensuring that people who aren't entitled to free medical care are billed for it. Despite the funding crisis, despite there not being enough money in any health trust to pay for everything that they are committed to providing.

And then they suddenly have a knee jerk reaction and start doing things in a crass potentially discriminatory way. It really annoys me when things are done so badly, so needlessly

The NHS has been resistant for years and years to ensuring that people who aren't entitled to free medical care are billed for it.

I believe the resistance is to medical professionals being asked to ensure someone is of the correct status or able to pay for their care before they are treated. There are many within the NHS who refuse to do this for moral/ethical reasons. I suspect this is part of the reason why it is being done so haphazardly. There are some who won't do it and some who don't mind doing it. Others may not want to do it, but have pressure put on them from above or from Government so are doing the absolute minimum they can get away with.

At the moment you at hearing about the ones that seem particularly dodgy, but without a proper investigation on what letters have been sent out to whom it is hard to know if there is any reality to the claims of racism. To be honest I think this is what happens when the Government tries to implement a policy that a large proportion of the people who have to carry it out fundamentally disagree with. Particularly when your relationship with these people is already ruined by previous fights with the NHS.

It's a difficult problem for the NHS. Without some sort of European style insurance card, like the French carte vitale, I'm not sure how they are supposed to distinguish between Britons and foreigners who have a right to use the NHS, and Britons and foreigners who don't.

I have no right to use the NHS. However, it would be easy enough for me to pitch up to a hospital with my UK passport, and a bank statement addressed to my Mum's UK address which we use for forwarding purposes.

Basically, the NHS is being asked to do the impossible, at some cost, and it's by no means clear the the money raised will cover the cost of raising it.

However the same people in the UK who are so concerned about forriners, are resistant to an ID system

The problem with discussing "ID cards" in the UK is because we have no direct experience as a majority the debate got muddied when "ID cards" were proposed last decade, to a lot of opposition (mine included).

I have no problem with the idea of a state-issued/approved form of ID.

I do have a problem with requiring it to be carried (which then requires powers to (a) stop people to look at their id and (b) lock them up if they haven't got it).

And I was and am flatly opposed to the massive unhackable database that was going to sit behind the ID card so any park warden can see my "record".

I agree that it's a difficult task for the NHS, in the absence of ID cards in this country. I can see that some doctors may have a moral problem with it, but....well....that's not their decision to make. If they feel that strongly about it, they can offer FOC medical care to anyone who wants it by setting up their own practice that does just this. Or volunteer with someone like Medicins Sans Frontiers. If they are employed by the NHS, they need to abide by the NHS rules.

If they would engage properly, a common framework for checking entitlement and producing bills for treatment could be developed, rather than the haphazard arrangements we have at present. (And I say this as a Brit who has no entitlement either to NHS care, but could no doubt access it if I chose to when I came back to the UK on holiday)

It's not about ID cards though. I have a perfectly valid British passport. But I am not entitled to free care on the NHS (except emergency care, with my EHIC).

This is a phenomenally badly thought out policy which will result in a lot of money being spent checking the rights of many people with foreign sounding names who are perfectly entitled to NHS care. And it will miss the cheating expats who return to the UK for healthcare that they have no right to.

This is a phenomenally badly thought out policy which will result in a lot of money being spent checking the rights of many people with foreign sounding names who are perfectly entitled to NHS care. And it will miss the cheating expats who return to the UK for healthcare that they have no right to.

See also: "means testing" ...