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Brexit

Sufficient progress on Irish Border

259 replies

user1471441738 · 26/09/2017 19:52

Donald Tusk said today although he welcomed the end if cake and eat it we'd still not made enough progress to move to a trade deal.

I'm wondering if we can ever get there. Guaranting citizens rights SHOULD be simple enough. The "divorce payment" is just about money.

However, what position would work on the border question?

For me, workable ideas are:

1: Cancel Brexit
2: United Ireland
3: EEA/single market membership
4: Single market for Northern Ireland but not Britain, hard border with Britain (border is the coast) and Northern Irish businesses wishing to trade must generally meet both EU and British standards.
5: Hard border with customs and passport checks between Northern Ireland and Eire.

Are there any others?

All 5 would surely massively anger lots of people

OP posts:
FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 29/09/2017 13:39

Your view of the world is so detached from reality that you think the Troubles in NI could be sorted if everyone just put aside their pride.

And I said this exactly where Bear.

Please, please point it out to me because that is a thought/belief/opinion that I have never had, so I fear I must have been hacked if there a post with my name on it that says the Troubles in NI could be sorted just by putting aside pride.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 29/09/2017 13:41

Bear and Somerville - there are only two conclusions about Faith

Perhaps you should give your sanctimony a well deserved & long overdue rest.

I am neither a troll nor ignorant.

prettybird · 29/09/2017 13:43

So you're not ignorant but are proud of being called ignorant Confused. Riiiiiight Hmm

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 29/09/2017 13:44

Not at all.

Was merely giving an an appropriately flippant response to Bear’s incessant sanctimony is all.

FlaviaAlbia · 29/09/2017 13:55

Catholic families are being driven from their homes in a shared housing area right now. An area that loyalist paramilitaries stamped their control on a while ago with the tacit support of the DUP.

www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/police-step-up-patrols-after-13690498

This is the kind of thing we're going to have to 'live with' and the kind of thing that will get worse.

LivLemler · 29/09/2017 13:58

Look there is only one obvious solution and that is to have NI in the customs union with the border at the sea ports. Yes, this will annoy the DUP but it is the logical consequence of what they voted for, so karma. It is much less practically disruptive to the NI economy than the alternative.

I agree that this is the most practical solution. However it cannot happen, because the consequence of this isn't just "annoying the DUP". It is also annoying loyalist paramilitary groups. Not sure where you're from, so sorry if it's insulting to imply you don't know this, but - you'll have heard of the IRA. There were also similar groups on the other side, they didn't get as much coverage in the rest of the UK as they kept their activity out of GB (whole other thread there), but they were/are just as fucked up as the IRA. Indeed, now I get the sense that Sinn Fein and the higher levels of the IRA have much more control of the rank and file than the DUP and others have over the UVF and UDA.

To get a feeling for what they can do, look up what happened a few years ago when Belfast city council voted to not to fly the union flag over City Hall daily and move to designated days, as happens in Westminster among other places. Belfast was in lockdown mode for weeks, especially on the weekends which was great as it was December so trade was decimated. I was nearly killed on a driving lesson as we turned down the wrong street and I didn't have the skills yet to do a quick three point turn and escape the mob.

If NI remains in the customs union and the borders move to the Irish Sea, that distances NI politically and legally from Britain. Not to mention bringing it closer to Ireland. This is not acceptable to unionists and loyalists. And, that's fair enough. It would surely be against the terms of the GFA for one thing. And if we are going to protect the Irish identity of nationalists and republicans, we need to do the same for the British identity of unionists and loyalists.

Again, think of the chaos that ensued over a flag. One flag. Moving the border to the sea, or instituting a hard border on the land will jeopardise and likely end the peace process.

Someone else has probably explained this much better and more succinctly while I've been typing...

Bearbehind · 29/09/2017 13:58

faith stop being such a GF.

All you do on these threads is post a load of ideological nonsense and never once do you actually attempt to answer questions which require thinking something other than 'we'll carry on as before'.

Bearbehind · 29/09/2017 14:00

Wrt to where you said about pride and the troubles in NI- saying the people of NI should have put their pride aside and voted pragmatically in the referendum is clearly saying you think the issues there are just about pride- what else could you possibly have meant?

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 29/09/2017 14:42

faith stop being such a GF.

I will just as soon as as you do

Wrt to where you said about pride and the troubles in NI- saying the people of NI should have put their pride aside and voted pragmatically in the referendum is clearly saying you think the issues there are just about pride- what else could you possibly have meant?

It clearly does not in any way at all mean that the issues there are ‘just about pride’.

It was a statement made purely with regard to the EU referendum vote only and nothing else - which was entirely clear, as I was explicit on my post - in fact, it was within one sentence, not even caveated on the end and therefore missable.

You even handily reposted the offending sentence.
Entirely clear that I was referring to the referendum vote & not anything else.

Bearbehind · 29/09/2017 14:44

faith, what has 'pride' got to do with the EU referendum vote?

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 29/09/2017 15:11

faith, what has 'pride' got to do with the EU referendum vote?

Do you actually read all posts, or just mine?

It was in response to a previous post.

Bearbehind · 29/09/2017 15:16

Of course I read other posts however in this instance it wouldn't matter anyway as you quoted the post it was in response to

It said

It would have been a far more impactful argument if NI had had an 84% turnout with a 96% Remain vote for example.

Well with the religious and ethnic divide, that was never going to happen.

You really don't have a clue.

And you said

If some NI voters cannot put aside their pride to cast a pragmatic vote, the outcome of which will impact irrevocably on their future, or are choosing not to vote in an attempt to deliberately undermine the union, then that is in no way the responsibility of Leave voters in the rest of the U.K.

How can that response be saying anything other than you think the religious and ethnic divides are just a matter of pride?

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 29/09/2017 15:39

Ffs Bear.

There were several posts wrt NI & turnout.

In response to a previous post, I said:

^Wrt nobody caring about what happens in Ireland (and NI), I would have more sympathy with that if NI voters had cared enough themselves tbh.
37.3% didn’t care enough to vote
27.7% voted to Leave.
Only 35% of NI were sufficiently concerned enough to vote to remain within the EU.

‘Not bothered’ had the biggest vote share in NI.^

Somerville replied:

Again, Faith, you flaunt your ignorance about NI. There are a lot of people who are politically disenfranchised, because of our history. And the sectarian nature of political allegiance in NI lead to a lot of further confusion and decisions to abstain.

I replied:

^I may be ‘flaunting my ignorance about NI’, but I don’t live in NI.

It is the majority of voters in NI who either voted to leave or didn’t vote at all (65% of the NI electorate) that your eye-rolling condescension should be squared at tbh.^

She replied:

Everyone who voted leave (or indeed, didn't vote) is culpable, in my opinion, Faith. But those who claim to be patriotic supporters of the United Kingdom especially - it's staggering that you/they think it's merely up to individual parts of the Union to stand up for their own interests.

I replied:

^Well everyone knew that every vote counted - the onus was on every individual to have their voice counted; if the voters in NI were not sufficiently interested in their future, then it is ridiculous to berate people who don’t even live there for their voting decision.

Similarly Scotland (although Scotland is not in the same position as NI obviously).

Gibraltar I feel for as they engaged wholeheartedly with a staggeringly high voter turnout, but unfortunately their numbers are tiny (although with Gibraltar, a majority of their voters wish to remain as part of the UK which is entirely different to NI, so not comparable)

Assuming the ‘not sufficiently bothered’ NI (& Scotland) had engaged with the vote at the same level as Gibraltar did then that would have been entirely different & would have had an impact on the discourse.
It would have been a far more impactful argument if NI had had an 84% turnout with a 96% Remain vote for example (as with Gibraltar).

But they didn’t.^

She replied:

^It would have been a far more impactful argument if NI had had an 84% turnout with a 96% Remain vote for example.

Well with the religious and ethnic divide, that was never going to happen.

You really don't have a clue.^

Then

^I think it should have only been valid if every constituent country of the UK voted to leave. Otherwise it would (and indeed, will) ultimately result in the break up of the union.

Which is why all the NI-leave voters were not DUP-supporters as is sometime believed, and nor was it political apathy that led to the lower turnout. I know DUP-voting-unionists who voted to remain, or abstained, because they foresaw the break up of the Union over the issue. And I know SF-voting-nationalists who voted to leave, or abstained, basically out of badness wanting to undermine the Union, however harmful the means. (There were also people on each side of the sectarian divide who voted against what their political representatives recommended for economic or other reasons, too.)^

I replied:

If some NI voters cannot put aside their pride to cast a pragmatic vote, the outcome of which will impact irrevocably on their future, or are choosing not to vote in an attempt to deliberately undermine the union, then that is in no way the responsibility of Leave voters in the rest of the U.K.

Alternatively Bear, you could just RTFT which would be far easier.

Is it now abundantly clear to you that AT NO POINT did I say that the Troubles in NI could have simply been avoided?
Or indeed that I “think the religious and ethnic divides are just a matter of pride?”

Bearbehind · 29/09/2017 15:43

I RTFT itwas easier than reading that garbled post which didn't highlight the quotes properly

Back track all you like, that's how it came across whether you meant it to or not.

Are you ever going to attempt to answer the question about it not being possible to have a full FTA without borders, even if the EU agreed to it, because it breaches WTO rules?

Somerville · 29/09/2017 15:51

Faith in all fairness you did give the impression that it was pride that made people unable to cast a pragmatic vote. Though it wasn't clear what part of the community you're getting at, and what you think the pragmatic vote should have been.

Words have meanings. If you wrote words that didn't actually convey your meaning then say that. Otherwise we'll think you meant what your words said.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 29/09/2017 15:52

I’m not backtracking at all Bear - I reposted all posts.

At no point did I say the things you said I did.

The formatting looks fine from my phone btw - the quoted parts are in italics, the rest in normal font.

I look forward as ever to your apology re misquoting & misrepresenting me though.
I of course trust that it was not intentional & that you merely misunderstood - I would hate to think that you were deliberately being a GF.

Bearbehind · 29/09/2017 15:57

I will not apologise to you.

You still haven't made it clear what 'pride' had to do with the vote.

Other posters read it the way I did too.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 29/09/2017 16:02

Faith in all fairness you did give the impression that it was pride that made people unable to cast a pragmatic vote. Though it wasn't clear what part of the community you're getting at, and what you think the pragmatic vote should have been.

You said that various parts of various communities had different motivations for voting/not voting/voting whichever way.

The EU Ref was something that had the potential to impact massively the GFA, NI & Ireland - regardless of people’s allegiances & ideology.

My point was that it was up to the all of the NI electorate to vote in the way that they felt was best for them - and if it meant putting aside pride to do so then so be it - after all, a vote is private & nobody need ever know where your cross went.

Whether leave or Remain was the ‘right’ or pragmatic vote wasn’t my point - but rather that not voting as some sort of protest was not pragmatic at all.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 29/09/2017 16:04

I will not apologise to you.

I am spectacularly unsurprised...

Peregrina · 29/09/2017 16:08

The Gibraltarians voted 96% to Remain and a fat lot of good it has done them. So even if by some miracle 100% of NI voters had voted Remain, the answer from May and cronies would have been "tough."

Bearbehind · 29/09/2017 16:08

And I'm spectacularly unsurprised that you can't answer the question about what you actually meant by putting aside pride to vote.

prettybird · 29/09/2017 16:11

Bear - I think the answer to my choice of two different conclusions from earlier this afternoon is b) Wink as he/she is has insisted that he/she is not a troll

The level of ignorance in the true sense of the word displayed is both shocking and disappointing - but symptomatic of many Leave voters Sad

Bearbehind · 29/09/2017 16:11

Maybe you could demonstrate what you meant by 'pride' with an example.

From where I'm looking it can only mean that people put aside their beliefs, allegiances and ideology and voted against them.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 29/09/2017 16:12

And I'm spectacularly unsurprised that you can't answer the question about what you actually meant by putting aside pride to vote.

I did.

RTFT dear.

Bearbehind · 29/09/2017 16:13

You really didn't dear

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