Sufficient progress on Irish Border

[user1471441738]

Donald Tusk said today although he welcomed the end if cake and eat it we'd still not made enough progress to move to a trade deal.

I'm wondering if we can ever get there. Guaranting citizens rights SHOULD be simple enough. The "divorce payment" is just about money.

However, what position would work on the border question?

For me, workable ideas are:

1: Cancel Brexit
2: United Ireland
3: EEA/single market membership
4: Single market for Northern Ireland but not Britain, hard border with Britain (border is the coast) and Northern Irish businesses wishing to trade must generally meet both EU and British standards.
5: Hard border with customs and passport checks between Northern Ireland and Eire.

Are there any others?

All 5 would surely massively anger lots of people

but the block to this comes from some citizens of NI feeling that this is separating NI from UK.

Seeing the history in NI and how raw the subject still is, i think that expecting people to 'just be a bit more flexible/sensible' is asking for a hell of a lot IMO.

Re having some imagination...

Can someone tell me why the brexiters in the government (or out of it) haven't used their imagination to give some proposals? Because so far, there are has been none.
There has been nice wishes and/or statements (such as we can get a FTA with the EU) but nothing concrete (as in this what we are proposing. It will cover goods/services/whatever works and the rules will be xxx)
So I'm waiting for very imaginative ideas for DD and the likes. When will we be able to hear them?

Can someone tell me why the brexiters in the government (or out of it) haven't used their imagination to give some proposals

It's because they don't actually mean 'imagination', they mean, let's keep everything as it was before except the bit about FOM of people and us paying anything.

*Oh well done, centuries of conflict so easily solved. Just be sensible. Who knew we could have saved so many lives by just being fucking sensible?

You don't know the first thing about it and you are a clueless fool. So you fit right in on a Brexit debate*

🙄
Ok then

So we voted for it, we are getting it and poor old Ireland will have to suffer the consequences

Gosh. Thanks. I wonder how you would have phrased that if you actually intended to sound patronising and dismissive?

NI is not sensible. You have heard of the DUP haven't you?

"So there will be some smuggling but N.Ireland is used to it and will just turn a blind eye"

Who exactly do you think are involved in border smuggling? A few crafty farmers moving cows across their fields to earn an extra bob or two ?

It's a major criminal business that funds terrorism on both sides of the political divide,undermines the economy of the whole island of Ireland and threatens peace and stability . Have a google for the death of Paul Quinn , a young man who fell foul of one of these organised gangs to get an idea of the calibre of people you are dealing with and the threat they pose to everyone in the community. I would post a link but I do not have the stomach this morning to risk reading the horrific details again. Note how these gangs have terrorised and murdered those who have sought justice for his death.

And that's just the home grown lot.

Correct me if I am wrong - did the problem of the GFA or the border in Ireland even come up in the lead up to the referendum? I never heard a single thing about it.

At most, only in passing. As someone in England, it was for me one issue which strongly influenced my Remain vote. The GFA was hard won, and I didn't want to see it put at risk. This was more important to me than telling Cameron what I thought of him, which a Leave vote from me would have represented.

Can someone tell me why the brexiters in the government (or out of it) haven't used their imagination to give some proposals.

Because they have no imagination. Consider why May has gained the nickname 'The Maybot' in some quarters.

*Correct me if I am wrong - did the problem of the GFA or the border in Ireland even come up in the lead up to the referendum? I never heard a single thing about it.

It just shows how much everybody cares about what happens in Ireland.*

It didn’t come up much, no.
The Remain campaigners neglected to highlight it or make a big enough point about it.

Wrt nobody caring about what happens in Ireland (and NI), I would have more sympathy with that if NI voters had cared enough themselves tbh.
37.3% didn’t care enough to vote
27.7% voted to Leave.
Only 35% of NI were sufficiently concerned enough to vote to remain within the EU.

‘Not bothered’ had the biggest vote share in NI.

Can any Leavers here tell us how they think the UK could continue on the same free trade terms, even if the EU wanted to allow that, given it affects all other countries terms and breaches WTO rules?

We're beyond dreaming of unicorns and rainbows now, we need actual practical answers.

If you're honest with yourselves you have to concede we cannot continue as we are now, once outside the Single Market, no matter how much you want us to.

Until the politicians (on all sides) stop posturing & start being sensible then nothing can move forward.

Oh, the irony of this, coming from a Brexiteer...

Oh, the irony of this, coming from a Brexiteer...

Yes, because of course all Leave voters are essentially the same person.
Like the Borg in fact.
🙄🙄

Well, they all seem to suffer from the same delusions...

.......And inability to put forward any practical, realistic solutions

I have a solution:

England and Wales can secede from the UK.

Scotland and NI would be the UK and would remain in the EU.

This would mean no border between NI/ Ireland (there would be one between England/Scotland.
People from NI would still have free access and be part of the (slightly smaller) UK.
It would stop the NI/Scots from moaning that they voted to remain.

Added benefit that the UK woukdnt be geographically cutting Ireland off from the EU as could access via Scotland.

As an aside, when is the last time anyone mentioned Gibraltar?

As proof we are just going round in circles here TM has been quoted today saying "I am pleased that the negotiations have been making progress and I look forward to developing that deep and special partnership with the EU”.

When will she realise 'deep and special' is as meaningless as 'strong and stable' was or as pointless as 'Brexit means Brexit' was.

She hasn't even got the sense to stop using the same sound bite over and over again. It's so insincere and makes it so obvious she doesn't have a fuckng clue how things are going to work out.

It gets my back up every time I hear the words 'deep and special' it must be driving the EU to distraction.

When was the last time anyone mentioned Gibraltar?

That would be about 6 months ago, when Fallon and Howard threatened that the UK would “go all the way” to keep Gibraltar in British hands.

Again, Faith, you flaunt your ignorance about NI. There are a lot of people who are politically disenfranchised, because of our history. And the sectarian nature of political allegiance in NI lead to a lot of further confusion and decisions to abstain.

A large majority of NI residents voted. And 56% of those voted to REMAIN. A much more convincing majority than the UK result as a whole. And yet they are stuck with probably bearing the most serious consequences of Brexit, including the ever-present fears of the resurgence of armed conflict, which is predicted if either side feels their identity and freedom is undermined by the final deal.

Yes, because of course all Leave voters are essentially the same person.
Like the Borg in fact

I am actually Seven of Nine’s identical twin sister

Only 35% of NI were sufficiently concerned enough to vote to remain within the EU.

Only 37% of the total UK electorate voted Leave - but this is an 'overwhelming majority', so clearly a very similar Remain figure for NI must be almost as overwhelming.

Sorry for being facetious - I am aware that the situation is no laughing matter. If violence does break out again, then I will regard Cameron and May as having blood on their hands.