Sufficient progress on Irish Border

[user1471441738]

Donald Tusk said today although he welcomed the end if cake and eat it we'd still not made enough progress to move to a trade deal.

I'm wondering if we can ever get there. Guaranting citizens rights SHOULD be simple enough. The "divorce payment" is just about money.

However, what position would work on the border question?

For me, workable ideas are:

1: Cancel Brexit
2: United Ireland
3: EEA/single market membership
4: Single market for Northern Ireland but not Britain, hard border with Britain (border is the coast) and Northern Irish businesses wishing to trade must generally meet both EU and British standards.
5: Hard border with customs and passport checks between Northern Ireland and Eire.

Are there any others?

All 5 would surely massively anger lots of people

Only 37% of the total UK electorate voted Leave - but this is an 'overwhelming majority', so clearly a very similar Remain figure for NI must be almost as overwhelming.

And yet the percentage of ‘not bothered’ NI voters trumps all.

Again, Faith, you flaunt your ignorance about NI. There are a lot of people who are politically disenfranchised, because of our history. And the sectarian nature of political allegiance in NI lead to a lot of further confusion and decisions to abstain.

I may be ‘flaunting my ignorance about NI’, but I don’t live in NI.

It is the majority of voters in NI who either voted to leave or didn’t vote at all (65% of the NI electorate) that your eye-rolling condescension should be squared at tbh.

Everyone who voted leave (or indeed, didn't vote) is culpable, in my opinion, Faith. But those who claim to be patriotic supporters of the United Kingdom especially - it's staggering that you/they think it's merely up to individual parts of the Union to stand up for their own interests.
People like me - I'm not a natural supporter of the Union, and would like a united Ireland, if there is ever any way to bring that about peacefully - are instead having to speak up about the damage that is being inflicted on the Union by the English/Welsh leave vote.

But those who claim to be patriotic supporters of the United Kingdom especially - it's staggering that you/they think it's merely up to individual parts of the Union to stand up for their own interests.

Well everyone knew that every vote counted - the onus was on every individual to have their voice counted; if the voters in NI were not sufficiently interested in their future, then it is ridiculous to berate people who don’t even live there for their voting decision.

Similarly Scotland (although Scotland is not in the same position as NI obviously).

Gibraltar I feel for as they engaged wholeheartedly with a staggeringly high voter turnout, but unfortunately their numbers are tiny (although with Gibraltar, a majority of their voters wish to remain as part of the UK which is entirely different to NI, so not comparable)

Assuming the ‘not sufficiently bothered’ NI (& Scotland) had engaged with the vote at the same level as Gibraltar did then that would have been entirely different & would have had an impact on the discourse.
It would have been a far more impactful argument if NI had had an 84% turnout with a 96% Remain vote for example (as with Gibraltar).

But they didn’t.

Fwiw, I am glad that we had the referendum (obviously, as I’m a leave voter), but I am disgusted with the politicians of all stripes who failed in their duty when the EU Ref was debated and agreed initially.

Alex Salmond (I think) argued for a better way to do it but was shouted down.

It should have been officially declared as:
Binding
Only valid if voter turnout overall exceeded 50%
Result enacted (if Leave) only if a certain threshold was reached (eg over 60%)

Obviously in that scenario, Leave would have lost & I’d have been bitterly disappointed - but at least the decision would have been less open to legal challenges & never ending attempts to derail if Leave had won in that scenario.

Assuming the ‘not sufficiently bothered’ NI (& Scotland) had engaged with the vote at the same level as Gibraltar did then that would have been entirely different & would have had an impact on the discourse.

Do you know the relative populations of the consistent countries of the UK?

It would have been a far more impactful argument if NI had had an 84% turnout with a 96% Remain vote for example.

Well with the religious and ethnic divide, that was never going to happen.

You really don't have a clue.

I think it should have only been valid if every constituent country of the UK voted to leave. Otherwise it would (and indeed, will) ultimately result in the break up of the union.

Which is why all the NI-leave voters were not DUP-supporters as is sometime believed, and nor was it political apathy that led to the lower turnout. I know DUP-voting-unionists who voted to remain, or abstained, because they foresaw the break up of the Union over the issue. And I know SF-voting-nationalists who voted to leave, or abstained, basically out of badness wanting to undermine the Union, however harmful the means. (There were also people on each side of the sectarian divide who voted against what their political representatives recommended for economic or other reasons, too.)

Do you know the relative populations of the consistent countries of the UK?

Yes

Although what their population numbers have to do with expressing things in percentages is beyond me.

If NI & Scotland had both had an 84% turnout with a 96% Remain vote then that would have had a far greater impact on the discourse - regardless of what the numbers added up to.

Talk of the percentages without relative populations size is pointless. It wouldn't make a difference to the result if everyone in NI had voted to remain.

We've been told for a year that the tiny majority to leave is the will of the people, with the fact never mentioned that the majority actually voted either to remain or not at all. Yet for the opinions of the people of NI to be given any credence, a highly divided population should vote with 84% turnout and 96% Remain vote. Huh?

*It would have been a far more impactful argument if NI had had an 84% turnout with a 96% Remain vote for example.

Well with the religious and ethnic divide, that was never going to happen.

You really don't have a clue.*

If some NI voters cannot put aside their pride to cast a pragmatic vote, the outcome of which will impact irrevocably on their future, or are choosing not to vote in an attempt to deliberately undermine the union, then that is in no way the responsibility of Leave voters in the rest of the U.K.

Yet for the opinions of the people of NI to be given any credence, a highly divided population should vote with 84% turnout and 96% Remain vote. Huh?

I give less credence to a low turnout than a high one, yes.
Obviously.

Why wouldn’t I?

I'm trying to think of any vote where NI could reach a 96% consensus.

Sky is blue? Nope, them'uns clearly can't see that it's usually grey. Free money for everyone? Nah, them'uns will only use it to grind us down. World peace? Not until them'uns agree first.

If some NI voters cannot put aside their pride to cast a pragmatic vote, the outcome of which will impact irrevocably on their future, or are choosing not to vote in an attempt to deliberately undermine the union, then that is in no way the responsibility of Leave voters in the rest of the U.K.

NI voted to REMAIN! Sorry to shout, but seriously, we all know that Scotland and NI voted heavily to remain. Wales very narrowly to to leave. England, fairly narrowly to leave. (Though England, outside of London and the SE-University cities, was a heavy leave vote.)

Blaming the shitshow of the results of leaving on the people of NI and Scotland is incorrect, and will ultimately do even more damage to the Union.

Is that your point, or am I missing something? I'm in bed with a virus and a grouchy baby, so maybe I'm being a bit dense.

Welcome to the Alice in Wonderland world of some Leave voters.

The inevitable and inescapable problems in NI are not in any way the responsibility of those that voted Leave who hadn't even thought about the consequences but instead are the fault of those that didn't vote even though the respective populations of NI and Scotland would have made changing the result well nigh impossible and even the Remain voters' fault

Next it will be Ireland's fault for not following the UK out of the EU

If some NI voters cannot put aside their pride to cast a pragmatic vote

That's possibly one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read on here.

we all know that Scotland and NI voted heavily to remain

Did they heck. Heavily my arse.

Blaming the shitshow of the results of leaving on the people of NI and Scotland is incorrect, and will ultimately do even more damage to the Union.

I never once said this.

I'm in bed with a virus and a grouchy baby, so maybe I'm being a bit dense.

get well soon - I’m dreading my first brush with winter viruses

If 52% across the UK is a "decisive" victory and means that "the people have spoken" and can never speak again , then what is 62%, with every single council area voting Remain in Scotland???

*If some NI voters cannot put aside their pride to cast a pragmatic vote

That's possibly one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read on here.*

Really??!!

I'm aware of only one time where we managed to put aside "pride" (actually, emotions and prejudices which are much harder to compromise than bloody pride) and cast a pragmatic vote.
It was in the referendum to support the terms of the GFA. We managed an 80% turnout and 70% majority.
NB, for those too young to remember, the only party that didn't support the GFA was the DUP, who went on to support leave and are now propping up the government - thus having influence, through Brexit, to undermine the GFA.

Well done leavers and Tories

Look there is only one obvious solution and that is to have NI in the customs union with the border at the sea ports. Yes, this will annoy the DUP but it is the logical consequence of what they voted for, so karma. It is much less practically disruptive to the NI economy than the alternative.

faith, it's really nothing to be proud of at all. It's disgustingly ignorant.

You and your fellow Leavers have absolutely no answers to any Brexit problems.

Your view of the world is so detached from reality that you think the Troubles in NI could be sorted if everyone just put aside their pride.

I don't know why it shocks me anymore but it actually does.

I never once said this.

Okay then faith, apologies. It's certainly an accusation I've heard IRL though. Some leavers I know are getting incredibly anxious at the Ireland issues... I tried to debate these with them before the referendum, and was told it would all be magically fine.

Bear and Somerville - there are only two conclusions about Faith : either a) he/she is a troll and is deliberately winding us up, which would be an understandable conclusion to draw from his/her statement about being proud to be called ignorant or b) he/she genuinely doesn't give a stuff, not wants to be educated, about the Troubles and the potential risk to the hard won peace in NI that the GFA brought and the negative consequence on the people of both communities that would result from the GFA breaking down.

faith, it's really nothing to be proud of at all. It's disgustingly ignorant.

Abuse from Bear is the best type of abuse.