Sufficient progress on Irish Border

[user1471441738]

Donald Tusk said today although he welcomed the end if cake and eat it we'd still not made enough progress to move to a trade deal.

I'm wondering if we can ever get there. Guaranting citizens rights SHOULD be simple enough. The "divorce payment" is just about money.

However, what position would work on the border question?

For me, workable ideas are:

1: Cancel Brexit
2: United Ireland
3: EEA/single market membership
4: Single market for Northern Ireland but not Britain, hard border with Britain (border is the coast) and Northern Irish businesses wishing to trade must generally meet both EU and British standards.
5: Hard border with customs and passport checks between Northern Ireland and Eire.

Are there any others?

All 5 would surely massively anger lots of people

Interesting that the BBC has just done an item on the news on the supposedly soft border, pointing out that there are customs checks, that it required a lot of investment (for just a tenth of the traffic that goes over the channel) and involved a great deal of goodwill and collaboration between Norway and Sweden.

Frictionless borders - learning from Norway
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41413291

As far as I know, although historically Scandinavian countries used to go to war with each other, there has been no recent history of anything like The Troubles. It is too glib to quote Norway and Sweden in this context.

There are a lot of interesting historical parallels as to why the union between Norway and Sweden was dissolved - although perhaps more relevant to Scotland than NI.

Its only hard because the EU want it to be hard. No reason at all it cant be solved. 1 more reason why leaving the EU is a good idea.

fresh, could you try to explain why the EU should allow us completely free trade like we have now, which requires no borders, once we are outside the EU and the Single Market/ customs union?

This isn't a trick question.

Seriously, why on earth do you think this is possible?

The Norwegian/Swedish border is a soft border for people as they are both part of Schengen. However which you would know if you'd watched the news item Norway has different taxes, for example of alcohol, so people do still try to smuggle across the border.

Norway chooses not to be a full member of the EU.

So not quite sure why this not hard border is the EU's fault

No reason at all it cant be solved.
But not without a considerable amount of work by a number of parties, as e.g. was required for the Good Friday agreement coming into being, and give and take on both sides.

May, Fox, Johnson and the Tory headbangers stamping their feet and whining about wanting their cake and eating it won't begin to solve the problems.

"So there will be some smuggling but N.Ireland is used to it and will just turn a blind eye"

So, turning a blind to possible contaminated or/and counterfeit goods is fine. What if people die because of it? Possibly poisonous products or products not conforming to safety regulations. There is a reason to know the chain and origin of something. Smuggling is great for criminal gangs.

I really don't understand how people are going to be smuggling all these non compliant goods across the NI border - from the EU! Why would there be all these non compliant goods in the EU suddenly?

The problem with smuggling is that the chain of origin doesn't exist for a product or you cannot count on the veracity of any stated origin.

I really don't understand how people are going to be smuggling all these non compliant goods across the NI border - from the EU! Why would there be all these non compliant goods in the EU suddenly?

It will happen the other way. The UK has already been in trouble for admitting poor quality Chinese goods and then sending them on to the rest of the EU.

Ongoing fraud via the UK.

I suppose some might say it's the nasty EU for not just rolling over and letting these Chinese gangs continue to do this I'm sure these gangs would just love a soft NI border.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-2-billion-bill-eu-chinese-gangs-tax-dodge-2017-4

Bearbehind could you try to explain why the EU should allow us completely free trade like we have now, which requires no borders, once we are outside the EU and the Single Market/ customs union?

Seriously, why on earth do you think this is possible?

Your question implies the EU is like a parent and we are children that have to do what we are told. Free trade is in the interest of both parties, the question is why would the EU stop it. The answer is ugly and a very good reason to leave.

Do you mean its impossible or do you think its not wanted. Because I think its very possible and those that say otherwise are lying.

Because I think its very possible and those that say otherwise are lying.

Then you don't understand the organisations and body of law that govern international trade.

The Norwegian/Swedish border is a soft border for people as they are both part of Schengen. However which you would know if you'd watched the news item Norway has different taxes, for example of alcohol, so people do still try to smuggle across the border.

Norway is part of Schengen but not the EU customs union. There are border checks for goods but not for people.

The problem for Ireland is that, politically and practically, the existence of border checks for anything (even if it's "just" goods and not people) is a hot potato. Would you want to work at a checkpoint on the Irish border, given the history? Me neither ...

could you try to explain why the EU should allow us completely free trade like we have now, which requires no borders, once we are outside the EU and the Single Market/ customs union?*
*
Seriously, why on earth do you think this is possible?

Why is it not possible?
With a bit of imagination & some give & take from both sides it’s perfectly possible.

It’s only impossible because politicians are making it so.

With a bit of imagination & some give & take from both sides it’s perfectly possible.

Under WTO regulations and international trade law (GATT) any concessions to the UK would have to be made, unilaterally, to all other trading partners, under "most favoured nation" rules. Likewise, if the UK were to simply open its borders to EU goods, it would have to do so for all other trading partners.

Aaah - it's the old "imagination" and "why can't we have free trade, because it's good" arguments

We can't have free trade because we are choosing to leave the free trade area.

And as was pointed out with the Norway/Sweden example, even an "imaginative" solution, with a lot lower volume, involved a lot of investment and still involves - as Misti points out - border checks.

Just what NI wants

Imagination? How the fuck does imagination help the stinking mess the UK has made of this issue? Imagination has no role to play here, it's what you got into the shit in the first place, imagining you could have all the benefits of EU member ship without any of the attachments.'

You had free trade in the EU because you were a member of the EU. Now you have decided to leave and you are bemused as to why you can no longer have free trade? You're like a man who leaves his wife and still expects a regular shag.

.

faith and fresh, of course it's not literally impossible to have free trade and no border control- we have that now but only because we are it the EU.

We are leaving therefore it is not possible to have the same terms- what part of that is difficult to comprehend?

I can't decide if you are both being deliberately obtuse or you both just have your heads in the clouds and genuinely think that there's no need for anything to change, that we like, even though we are not going to be in the Single Market.

Look at it another way; if the EU were to agree to completely free trade, what happens to other countries agreements? What about the WTO rules?

I didn’t say anything about free trade as such - purely the required border.

Politicians representing UK (as a whole), EU & NI need to work together for the best solution.

For example - the notion of the border for goods being the sea & customs checks at ports is workable but the block to this comes from some citizens of NI feeling that this is separating NI from UK.

Until the politicians (on all sides) stop posturing & start being sensible then nothing can move forward.

The EU are proposing a sea border in this article but that isn't going to wash with the DUP.

I agree nothing can move forward until politician start being sensible but it is those on our side who need to accept we are not going to have the same terms we had before and start making proposals based on that fact.

The problem is our refusal to acknowledged leaving means losing the benefits of remaining. It's mind boggling that that's such a difficult concept for so many to grasp.

Oh well done, centuries of conflict so easily solved. Just be sensible. Who knew we could have saved so many lives by just being fucking sensible?

You don't know the first thing about it and you are a clueless fool. So you fit right in on a Brexit debate.

Why should all the people of NI be happy to be separated from the rest of the UK?

It's probably the least worst solution but it's still a bad idea.

And still no one can demonstrate how this upheaval of Brexit is going to result in any benefits anyway.

Everything is about damage limitation.