Sufficient progress on Irish Border

[user1471441738]

Donald Tusk said today although he welcomed the end if cake and eat it we'd still not made enough progress to move to a trade deal.

I'm wondering if we can ever get there. Guaranting citizens rights SHOULD be simple enough. The "divorce payment" is just about money.

However, what position would work on the border question?

For me, workable ideas are:

1: Cancel Brexit
2: United Ireland
3: EEA/single market membership
4: Single market for Northern Ireland but not Britain, hard border with Britain (border is the coast) and Northern Irish businesses wishing to trade must generally meet both EU and British standards.
5: Hard border with customs and passport checks between Northern Ireland and Eire.

Are there any others?

All 5 would surely massively anger lots of people

It’s not a trust thing though, it’s the law

It is now. But Brexit is changing a lot of laws. That's actually the point

Thanks Peregrina. For those who can't see the issue, another thing you should think about is the change in attitude towards those with EU passports. I'm experiencing people tell me that I should 'go home' (erm... I was born in the U.K.). And others saying that if I want to not be discriminated against I should just apply for a British passport.

Anyway, sorry for the me-rail. Having my own identity mansplained to me has got to me rather.

*Seriously faith, how do you think borders don't apply to all 4 freedoms once we are outside the EU?

Whilst in the EU all 4 can move freely, once out, they can't.*

Borders apply when out of the single market.
It is then entirely up to the U.K. how to manage border wrt incoming things.

With respect to Ireland & the border between NI & Ireland (which is what this thread is about) - the only thing that will require a physical border is goods.
People - no problem (pre existing agreement between U.K. & Ireland, so Irish citizens are free to move & work anywhere in England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales & NI).

There is however no way that the border issue can be resolved wrt goods, until the trade agreements are reached - this is why the trade discussions need to be discussed in parallel.

@Somerville

I seem to have upset you. Is Eireannach fosta me - and you will see from where - agus ta me mo chonai i Sasanna anois - so am concerned about many of the issues you appear to be facing - though cannot say I have experienced them myself.

If people wrongly ask you to produce a UK passport to prove your right to live and work in UK I suggest you point them to the relevant EU and UK /R o I legislation and explain that they are doubly wrong.

People - no problem (pre existing agreement between U.K. & Ireland, so Irish citizens are free to move & work anywhere in England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales & NI).

Which completely ignores the fact anyone from the EU could travel to Southern Ireland then move to NI, then the UK.

Wrt trade, see my last post.

We don't need to know the trade deal to discuss trade borders.

We need to accept there will not be free movement of goods, services and capital and make plans accordingly.

This nonsense about needing to know what trade agreement we have is simply because we are so arrogant we think we're going to get our own way and not be subjected to tariffs.

A possible solution (other than giving NI a special status) is a soft border with customs and passport controls at embarkation points on the island of Ireland, using the Irish Sea as a hard border.

I have seen this discussed in the media here, it's very controversial and a non-runner from the point of view of many Irish people. Having UK customs present on our soil would feel like a return to days of foreign rule to many.

it is the case that we need to know what a trade deal will be before we can agree anything about the NI/Irish border.

This is completely wrong.

We know - because the government has told us repeatedly - that ECJ jurisdiction is a red line, as is FOM. This means that whatever the final Brexit deal there will be a hard border for trade.

@ Bear

But there will be no incentive for EU nationals to work illegally in UK in a post Brexit scenario. They will go elsewhere where they will be able to participate fully in all the benefits that working legally brings.

It is very unlikely that EU nationals will require visitor visas for Uk.

Under the current arrangements for third country visa nationals R o I and UK have a common visa agreement.

All of this is bilateral and independent of the EU.

Sorry, posted too soon. Whatever the final brexit deal, the UK will be outside the SM and the EU customs union, and by definition this means a hard border for trade purposes.

I don't agree the movement of people across the border needs to be a particular issue. But there may well be discrimination against Irish passport holders after they have crossed the border.

imoverlyengaged Tuigim thú. Gabh mo leithscéal.

But there will be no incentive for EU nationals to work illegally in UK in a post Brexit scenario.

And we could have made it that way whilst in the EU if we'd bothered our arse.

It's generally agreed on here that FOM of people isn't the issue here- which is ironic give the overriding reason for leaving.

The trouble is, noone on the Leave side of the argument has any sensible proposals for trade which don't rely on carrying on regardless.

^^ FOM of people isn't the main issue here

But Bear this is a negotiation, our ideal is to get a free trade deal. Why would we not want to hang on for that? Why would we cave and just accept any old deal?

We know there will be trade, however monitored and tariffed. Trade happens. Trade agreements can evolve over time. Borders generally don't, much. So the border issue needs to be resolved before trade agreements are addressed. That's one reason why I thought the EU wanted the question of the Irish border sorted before trade talks. I thought their other reasons were to protect an EU nation, the RoI, from economic and political damage caused by Brexit and to protect the citizens of the island of Ireland from any fallout from damage to the Belfast Treaty. I am of Irish heritage - my mother from Kilkenny, my father's family from Armagh - and am deeply saddened by the callous ignorance with which Northern Ireland is being exploited by the present government. I carry both Irish and UK passports, was born in the English midlands, to which part of the country I am deeply attached, and used to be happy and a little proud to call myself British. Not so much now.

But Bear this is a negotiation, our ideal is to get a free trade deal. Why would we not want to hang on for that? Why would we cave and just accept any old deal

Because it's been made patently clear we can't have that.

There's fuck all point in clinging onto some desperate ideal.

We need to get real and think of solutions based on reality.

But bear, the problem is that there is no solid reality until the details of a trade agreement are discussed.

That’s why it is ridiculous that the border issue (for goods) is not being discussed alongside the future trade arrangement.

Of course there is a solid reality- we can't have the free trade deal we currently have if we are not in the Single Market.

Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

We either pay to stay on the same terms, which we've said we don't want to do, or we face tariffs.

What do you think we have to offer that will convince the EU that that is not the case?

That’s why it is ridiculous that the border issue (for goods) is not being discussed alongside the future trade arrangement.

It's not ridiculous at all.

The government's red lines on FOM and the ECJ mean that a hard border for trade is inevitable. The future trade agreement is irrelevant. What really needs to be discussed is a way of keeping NI inside the EU customs union - but this would mean a hard border between NI and the rUK and wouldn't be acceptable to the DUP.

The government is in a bind on this one, but the bind is of its own making and has nothing to do with the EU's order of business.

Following the thread very slowly.

I can't see even a beginning to a solution to this except another general election, in which the Tory party will hope desperately for a majority without partners, or a loss so that they can watch someone else grapple with it.

@Annandale

But the Labour Party have no coherent approach to Brexit either. This is clear from their conference. They are managing to paper over some of the cracks within the party but only because they are not in power. Were they elected they would be equally incompetent.

The only party with a coherent strategy are the Lib Dems and the chances of the being elected are zero.

So this mess is unlikely to go away unless we are offered a second referendum in which sanity prevails.

The Labour Party is clueless/conflicted on brexit, but I think it is reasonable to believe that they would be more pragmatic about finding a solution for Ireland, if only because they wouldn't be in bed with the DUP.

So if Ireland was your only brexit-related concern, you might reasonably wish for a new election and a Labour government (or Labour led coalition), given that no party with sensible policies in electable in the UK right now.

No sorry. I can see that my post looks like I think a labour government will be the solution, when I agree they haven't come up with an answer either. My thought was just that the only way of stepping forward on this for the current government I could see was to try to dump the DUP. However, given that some of the Tory knickerwetters (I prefer this to headbangers) are extremely Unionist it might not get them very far anyway.

Liadain The Times reported that when the UK Government suggested using surveillance cameras to allow free trade and movement, Dublin did not believe this to be sufficient and wanted checks to be moved to ports and airports, effectively making the Irish Sea the dividing line between the two land masses.

But who knows - press speculation?

But Bear lots of non EU countries have free trade deals with the EU. We as has been said many many time are one of their biggest markets and we already comply with their rules and regs. Why would they not want to negotiate a free trade deal with us? Spite!

Should read we are, as has