Sufficient progress on Irish Border

[user1471441738]

Donald Tusk said today although he welcomed the end if cake and eat it we'd still not made enough progress to move to a trade deal.

I'm wondering if we can ever get there. Guaranting citizens rights SHOULD be simple enough. The "divorce payment" is just about money.

However, what position would work on the border question?

For me, workable ideas are:

1: Cancel Brexit
2: United Ireland
3: EEA/single market membership
4: Single market for Northern Ireland but not Britain, hard border with Britain (border is the coast) and Northern Irish businesses wishing to trade must generally meet both EU and British standards.
5: Hard border with customs and passport checks between Northern Ireland and Eire.

Are there any others?

All 5 would surely massively anger lots of people

To solve the Irish border problem Peregrina!

But what would happen about the NI/ UK mainland border corcory?

I simply don't understand the logic of thinking FOM of people can continue between NI/ ROI and not considering how that then works for NI/ rest of UK

So can we say that we would allow freedom of movement of people from the EU across the Irish/NI border then it would be up to the EU what they wanted to do on the Irish side?

So basically a sea border? The unionists wouldn't buy anything that cuts them off from London and moves them closer to Dublin.

To solve the Irish border problem Peregrina!

To repeat May has consistently ruled it out. She ought to know where NI is being a geographer, but that is probably the sum total of her knowledge or interest.

Immigration is not the problem on the R o I /NI border.

At the moment R o I and UK have a common travel area. R o I is not part of Schengen. UK and R o I have similar rules for visa waiver nationals (eg US, Japan) and a shared scheme for visa nationals (eg Chinese) . There is no reason why this would not continue bilaterally post Brexit.

Eu nationals would not require a visa to visit UK. Those wishing to work/study and for whom there are jobs will apply for a work permit either before or after they arrive. This does not need to be administered or checked at the border. It can be done on line or by employers, landlords, or schools/colleges. There would be no incentive for EU nationals to work illegally in UK aas they would be unable to access housing, health and benefits systems.
So all of that is workable.

The real issue is cross border trade. And the blithe "we will revert to WTO terms" means 3% on all goods crossing the border each time they cross the border. There can be no exceptions. So that equates to at least 18% on Irish beef and dairy products which cross the border several times during their life cycle. And that will destroy businesses on both sides of the border.

So basically a sea border?
In practice - a border within the UK?

Those wishing to work/study and for whom there are jobs will apply for a work permit either before or after they arrive.

What about those who were born in NI and have always lived there but choose to have an Irish passport. Do they have to apply for a work permit to work in their own country? Do they have access to housing, health and benefit systems?

There would be no incentive for EU nationals to work illegally in UK aas they would be unable to access housing, health and benefits systems.

And presumably they would have their bank accounts frozen, their driving licences revoked and be prevented from renting privately or sending their children to school, if we are going to be consistent. Welcome to the UK.

@ Peregrina

There has always been a special arrangement in UK for Irish nationals. They have always had the right to live and work in UK. This is a bilateral UK Ireland treaty nothing to do with EU. There is no reason to change this.

@Figment
Nothing wrong with removing incentives for illegal migrants.But there would be no reason for EU nationals to work illegally in UK when they could work freely and legally in other EU countries and build up entitlements in the benefits systems.

What about those who were born in NI and have always lived there but choose to have an Irish passport. Do they have to apply for a work permit to work in their own country?

If their own country is NI & therefore the U.K., then clearly not.

U.K. has already said that all EU citizens currently resident in the U.K. will not be affected.
Moving forward post Brexit, the common travel area between Ireland & U.K. can continue (as it did before the EU), so again no problem.

The problem is not people, but trade & customs - which is why that needs to be discussed in parallel; the border quandary cannot be addressed in isolation.

There is only a special arrangement for us Irish-born-in-UK if people know there is and uphold it. That has already started not to happen - the question increasingly asked is "British passport holder?" When we answer "no, Irish, but-" it is already too late.

That's why FoM is a big deal. There have been no answers so far on how the UK plans to uphold our right to be identified as Irish and EU citizens, and not discriminated against as such.

Lots of people in Britain don't understand how incendiary it is when we are suddenly met with discrimination because of our religion/national identity (the two are indelibly entwined) all over again.

But, as has been pointed out countless times, any border applies to all 4 freedoms.

We can't just pick the ones we want to impose.

Trade is the biggest problem.

Immigration was never the huge issue it has been made out to be.

Sadly, this whole farce has come about because immigrantion issues were stirred up to such an extent.

That's why I'm that Leavers are now suggesting people could still come and go as they please.

It completely defies logic.

Yes, yes, I do know about the special arrangements for Irish nationals, which long predates the EU. But if someone is saying that EU citizens won't be able to do this that or the other, you do need to qualify it with the caveat that this won't apply to NI born Irish citizens, who will still be EU citizens. I rather suspect that some of you have overlooked this category of Irish citizen.

U.K. has already said that all EU citizens currently resident in the U.K. will not be affected

Nope. They have said probably won't be affected, but we're not actually sure exactly, so um, maybe.

@Somerville

Irish nationals have a special status in UK law which is separate to and pre-dates the rights they have as EU citizens. If people are asking you for a British passport to prove entitlements they are wrong. Also not clear to me why they would be doing that now pre Brexit.

The Republic of Ireland is not considered to be a ‘foreign country’ for the purpose of UK laws, and Irish citizens are not considered to be ‘aliens’. Irish citizens are treated as if they have permanent immigration permission to remain in the UK from the date they take up ‘ordinary residence’ here.

This special status affects Irish nationals’ rights across a number of areas, including eligibility for British citizenship, eligibility to vote and stand for election, and eligibility for certain welfare benefits. As a result, Irish nationals have more rights than other EU/ EEA nationals resident in the UK.

Since the legislation in this area is bilateral and predates the EU -it dates back to 1922- there is no reason for it to change post Brexit.

But, as has been pointed out countless times, any border applies to all 4 freedoms.

No. It doesn’t.

Being a member of the single market is the thing that requires signing up to all 4 freedoms.

@Peregrina

Sorry if I am being dim but I do not understand your distinction.

The exceptions apply to citizens of the Republic of Ireland irrespective of where they are born. No distinction between those born in the Republic, those born in the Six Counties, in UK or overseas.

Since the UK Home Office has already, mistakenly, told at least one British born and bred citizen to prepare to leave the country when he has never lived elsewhere, and initially wrongly denied him a passport, who exactly trusts them to honour agreements with the Irish Government?

imoverlyengaged

Did you really just explain my own status to me?

It’s not a trust thing though, it’s the law.

Seriously faith, how do you think borders don't apply to all 4 freedoms once we are outside the EU?

Whilst in the EU all 4 can move freely, once out, they can't.

I'm really struggling to see your logic here.

If that's the case engaged with the common travel area with Southern Ireland then no need to instigate any FOM for them and the 'only' problem is trade and it is the case that we need to know what a trade deal will be before we can agree anything about the NI/Irish border.

If people are asking you for a British passport to prove entitlements they are wrong.

I know they are wrong. They either do not know they are wrong, or do not care.

Also not clear to me why they would be doing that now pre Brexit.

Isn't it?

It's all very well saying glibly "it's the law". Somerville nails it above. They know they are wrong and they either don't know or don't care. The person who has fallen foul of the 'mistakes' has to spend time and money sorting it out.

the 'only' problem is trade and it is the case that we need to know what a trade deal will be before we can agree anything about the NI/Irish border.

We know what the trade deal will be if we're honest and realistic.

We already know we can't have free trade without paying for it.

There's no appetite for that so there has to be tariffs and NTB's.

What other option is there other than the cake and eat it one?

Why can't we make proposals based on tariffs being imposed?

The reality is it's because we're still operating under the illusion we will get away without needing tariffs.