Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Ireland, Apple and the final nail

158 replies

Carolinesbeanies · 18/09/2017 02:16

Possibly parking this here as this is going to be a slow burner, but as Macron is running the gauntlett avoiding the unions, his Finance Minister Le Maire, has succeded in gaining support from various EU states for taxing the likes of Google and Apple basically at point of sale on turnover. Ireland and Apple have already been brought to task over their tax arrangements, (appeals pending) but this latest proposal would have yet another catastrophic impact on Ireland.

Whilst I dont think it will actually get very far, several small states are already kicking back, the timing of this is bewildering. This proposal could see all US tech giants pull bases out of the EU. Its utterly nutty. The only reason I can see this even being tabled at the moment, is financial desperation in the bloc. I know the tax issues surrounding Google et al are extremely controversial and unpopular, but its not exactly new news. (And the EU should have avoided this whole issue in the first place) but why go for a populist policy now, that flies in the face of proposed global taxation deals, when the nett effect will be so detrimental?

Either way, it looks as though Irelands 'HQ' appeal is being utterly hamstrung by their 'benevolent' EU masters.

www.thelocal.fr/20170916/france-slams-silicon-valley-for-skirting-tax-in-europe

OP posts:
woman11017 · 27/09/2017 18:06

www.stopbrexitmarch.com
March against racist brexit and tax evasion brexit Smile and against an out of date opinion poll, comrade beanies.
No mandate, no brexit.

DrivenToDespair · 27/09/2017 18:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Carolinesbeanies · 27/09/2017 20:19

Thank you Driven, that joins some dots. Ive only done a cursory search but Richard Norths' wiki entry, threw up an interesting link that caught my eye.

"Princeton University's Andrew Moravcsik, whose research is cited in the book, has accused the authors of "misconstruing" his work as supporting their narrative and failing to demonstrate that there were any viable alternatives to European Union membership, with Booker and North's economics being "even dodgier than their history".

Curiosity piqued by the the person whose work North appears to have plagiarised and misrepresented, Ive dug a little into Andrew Moravcsik. For those still half interested (in this wild goose chase, though luckily Im on a day off....and its raining ), Moravcsik appears to have written extensively on the EU.

Ive not read it yet, but with my late night cocoa, Ill enjoy having a browse through this lot. Heres one thats caught my attention immediately. (not sure if I can get the full article, it appears a free subscription but Im just getting spinning wheels at the mo).

www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2016-10-17/europe-s-ugly-future

Do I assume that Peter North is indeed his fathers son?

OP posts:
Carolinesbeanies · 27/09/2017 20:21

dont know why the link screwed up in the text.....apols. Heres separated.

Thank you Driven, that joins some dots. Ive only done a cursory search but Richard Norths' wiki entry, threw up an interesting link that caught my eye.

"Princeton University's Andrew Moravcsik, whose research is cited in the book, has accused the authors of "misconstruing" his work as supporting their narrative and failing to demonstrate that there were any viable alternatives to European Union membership, with Booker and North's economics being "even dodgier than their history".

Curiosity piqued by the the person whose work North appears to have plagiarised and misrepresented, Ive dug a little into Andrew Moravcsik. For those still half interested (in this wild goose chase, though luckily Im on a day off....and its raining ), Moravcsik appears to have written extensively on the EU.

Ive not read it yet, but with my late night cocoa, Ill enjoy having a browse through this lot. Heres one thats caught my attention immediately. (not sure if I can get the full article, it appears a free subscription but Im just getting spinning wheels).

OP posts:
Carolinesbeanies · 27/09/2017 20:22

www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2016-10-17/europe-s-ugly-future

OP posts:
Carolinesbeanies · 27/09/2017 20:44

"Did you write to the BBC to complain about his constant appearances. I will bet that you didn't."

Of course not. I gave up complaining and turned over when it was the Blair Broadcasting Corp, as Ewan Davies says, theyre not even bothered about being accused of bias these days. If you want to whip up some racist fearmongering frenzy, tune into the Beeb. They love it, and as we saw with the Polish murder recently, the truths utterly irrelevant.

Indeed woman1107, Im sure the Beeb will give your march masses of coverage next week. Good luck with that one.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 27/09/2017 21:17

With our 100,000 person march in March, the BBC's main story was Carswell packing in UKIP. There was slightly better coverage of the recent 50,000 march - maybe because Theresa May botched the election. So it will be interesting to see what the BBC does manage next week.

Carolinesbeanies · 27/09/2017 21:21

Theworld, well Ive read this, and can highly recmmend it to anyone interested in where we are and what options there are on the table for the Euro. Those following Macrons speach yesterday, will recognise which option hes now going for. Its a subscription article, but free.

www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2016-10-17/europe-s-ugly-future

As to the Norths, it would appear theyve gone off on some self promoting tangent, cherry picking from various sources, yet failing to understand.

OP posts:
DrivenToDespair · 27/09/2017 21:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 28/09/2017 03:35

eureferendum.com/
For your reading pleasure.

Carolinesbeanies · 28/09/2017 08:52

Up until yesterday, Id never heard of the Norths. (Thank heavens it was a wet day with bugger all on the telly) but this is what I dug out.

Moravcsik, is a Professor of Politics and Director of the European Union Program at Princeton University.

Moravcsik's research has been supported by the National Science Foundation, Ford Foundation, Columbia University, Harvard University, German Marshall Fund, International Institute for Strategic Studies (London), Centre d'Etudes et Relations Internationales (Paris), and many other organizations. During the academic year 2011–2012, he was visiting fellow at the Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, NJ.

Moravcsik served in policy positions for governments on three continents. He was international trade negotiator at the US Department of Commerce, special assistant to South Korean Deputy Prime Minister Lee Hahn-Been, and press assistant at the Commission of the European Communities, as well as an editor of a Washington-based foreign policy journal. He has subsequently served as a member and in leadership positions on policy commissions organized by the Council on Foreign Relations, the Brookings Institution, the Carnegie Endowment, the Commission of the European Communities, Princeton University and other organizations.

He piqued my interest, and I gave him the respect to read a couple of his articles. A man like that, IMO, is entitled to have his view read.

Peter North, I think Ive discovered, is a blogger from Bristol. Who I cant find has done anything else, apart from then being son of a Richard North. He has 5000 followers on twitter, and an apparently, from what you tell us here, has a huge following of remain supporters interested for some apparent reason in his views.

Richard North, I gather, was a food safety officer with a phd in food safety from Leeds Met, and a former member of UKIP. He was research director for some political groupings Ive never heard of for 5 years, and apparently shared an office with Farage in Strasbourg. He wrote a theory paper called Flexit, (over 400 pages long, Ive not read) that apparently Aaron Banks adopted in the early days when vying to represent the Leave campaign. Both Banks, Farage and North, failed.

This 'Flexit' thing was dismissed academically by pretty much anyone who read it. I dont think he has twitter, but today, he too describes himself as a blogger.

I think Ive learned loads 😀

OP posts:
frumpety · 28/09/2017 10:33

Caroline which VAT are you discussing ?

frumpety · 28/09/2017 11:02

www.vatlive.com/vat-rates/european-vat-rates/

mathanxiety · 28/09/2017 22:25

Richard North was a leading Leave voice with an influential blog, and as you know, Aaron Banks was a leading light in Leave, and also behind the scenes in UKIP. Contrary to your claim, Banks and Farage have not yet failed. (We all live in hope of course.)

You are being completely disingenuous in dismissing North.

Moravcsik's career is an example of neo-liberalism in action, isn't it?
And indeed, his contribution to political theory is that globalism and mutual interdependence are the unstoppable trends of world history. His opinion on the EU is that it is the flower of rational acknowledgement of the advantages of structural integration.

Obv this analysis of the EU (and world history in general) was missed by the Tory party, UKIP, and Leave campaigners.

citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.201.2724&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Andrew Moravcsik 'Taking preferences seriously: a liberal theory of international politics'.

Carolinesbeanies · 30/09/2017 01:20

"Caroline which VAT are you discussing ?"

Im not discussing VAT Frumpety, thats indeed a straightforward EU tax. Im discussing corporate tax, and the current (?!) ability of Ireland to set their own levels.

Math, youve either been skim reading again or youre determined to rewrite other peoples posts.

Banks, Farage and North absolutely failed to become the representatives of the Leave Campaign for the referendum. I can hardly be disingenous (though why you dont just say 'liar' I dont know) over a bloke Ive never heard of. As you seem to be in some twilight zone here on MN, tomorrow, step out your front door, knock on a neighbours, and ask them to their face if they know Richard North. Do it. Itll be educational.

Moravcsik I discovered yesterday. Interesting bloke and with a cv like that, certainly warrants a read. As to being as familiar with him as you are, Im certainly not, so will of course bow to your greater knowledge. Turns out he only cropped up because this Richard North bloke apparently misrepresented him. (This is all getting very surreal, think Ill check my own name tomorrow with a neighbour......)

OP posts:
Carolinesbeanies · 30/09/2017 01:40

Back on topic, Macrons not getting quite the endorsement Im sure he hoped for after his rousing Sorbonne speach this week and his proposed reforms. Whether its enough to slow his bull in a china shop approach, hopefully. Itll still be December before theres agreement on any firm 'reform' proposals, if there are any agreements to be made. (or any governments to make them with)
Certainly a watch and wait. In the meantime, the French continue with their strikes. Ho hum.

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-summit/merkel-taps-brake-as-macron-pushes-euro-zone-reform-idUKKCN1C40YI

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 30/09/2017 02:14

Banks, Farage and North absolutely failed to become the representatives of the Leave Campaign for the referendum.

For someone who claims to read all sides from all areas you seem to have missed quite a bit.

I recommend you read Moravcsik. You'll end up kicking yourself for many reasons, not least of which is voting to leave the EU and thus ending up on the wrong side of history. If you need further convincing that the UK is firmly on the wrong side of history here, you have only to look at the Bombardier imbroglio.

Lol at the idea that Farage and Banks were not central to the Leave campaign. North too, the author of a very influential blog. A blogger doesn't need to be a celebrity to be influential.

Cailleach1 · 30/09/2017 03:13

Ireland can veto a move to corporate tax harmonisation as it must be unanimous among the 27 member states. And no Penny Mordaunt,

Lying Saying they cannot veto doesn't then become the truth --

I see that NI were hoping to implement the same corporate tax rate as Ireland. Murmurs of maybe even lower. Separate from the main UK Corporate tax rate of 20%. .

www.arthurcox.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Projected-Corporation-Tax-Rate-for-Northern-Ireland-from-April-2018.pdf

Uncertainty about that now.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/corporation-tax-rate-move-can-no-longer-be-certainty-35519741.html

Carolinesbeanies · 30/09/2017 10:38

Cailleach, they can for now, but the call is for majority voting. How far this will get, all depends on how much "wind" is indeed in Europes "sails". As this piece also quite rightly points out, the decision regards the eurozone future, will be with France and Germany. Macrons hinted at a '2 speed EU', one assumes to dispose of those annoying eastern bloc areas, and smaller troublesome states in the west and south.

We can only watch at this stage, as for certain, not one eu citizen in the entire bloc, will have a say.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/13/jean-claude-junckers-federalist-vision-for-the-eu-is-far-from-reality

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 30/09/2017 16:21

On the contrary, every voter in the EU can have a say if they wish. Every prime minister or equivalent gov't leader is voted in by their electorate. The Council comprising these gov't leaders make the decisions on the EU agenda. Also the ministers for each department meet too. Agriculture, health and so on.

The UK sat at the table and were part of the decision making in everything that happened in the EU since joining. If the UK voter wasn't happy with the input of their gov't, they could have changed who they voted for.

DrivenToDespair · 02/10/2017 21:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Carolinesbeanies · 03/10/2017 01:27

Cailleach, if only that were the case.

If youre interested in the 'democratic' impact, you may be interested in this. CEP, is the Centre for European Policy, and they monitor EU policy to bring understanding to the wider population. They are a very broad group of international academics, economists and professors. Have a dig round the site, its CEP.eu, which brings me nicely onto Drivens post.

Driven, if youre interested in a serious 'brexit' proposal, the CEP produced one back end of last year, and had it scrutinised academically, as well as economically. Its called the Ukraine Plus model.

This obsession with Richard North, former UKIP and qualified in Food safety, isnt helping your position. If I have a concern about the safety of eggs, Ill drop him a line, but as I posted earlier, his 'Flexit' paper, was pretty much ridiculed by all sides, as it doesnt stand up to even a cursory glance. Perhaps thats why the remain campaign still trot him out?

Try the Ukraine Plus, proposal, and see what you think.

www.cep.eu/en/eu-topics/details/cep/ukraine-plus-als-modell-fuer-den-brexit.html

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 03/10/2017 02:10

Lol @ safety of eggs.

Keep on trying to pretend he is not relevant to the Brexit debate and has never been. Are you trying to assert that UKIP had nothing to do with Brexit?

How far this will get, all depends on how much "wind" is indeed in Europes "sails".
Au contraire, it depends on how many states are willing to vote for or against the change in the rules on voting.

Throughout your posts, you continually assert that there is this entity called 'The EU' that is separate in every way from the constituent states. You see it as a dictator, a thief of sovereignty, That Which Must Be Obeyed. Nobody has any say in how this omnipotent body works but its power extends everywhere, in your scheme of things.

This is a failure on your part.

Carolinesbeanies · 03/10/2017 07:20

"Throughout your posts, you continually assert that there is this entity called 'The EU' that is separate in every way from the constituent states. You see it as a dictator, a thief of sovereignty, That Which Must Be Obeyed. Nobody has any say in how this omnipotent body works but its power extends everywhere, in your scheme of things."

Correct. And clearly not a failure on my part, if youve manage to understand it so succinctly Math.

"Au contraire, it depends on how many states are willing to vote for or against the change in the rules on voting."

Well, I can answer that. One third of member states MEPs are needed to form a quorum, so of 751 that means 250. Of those 250, over half, is needed for a majority, so 126 MEPs are needed to pass this. That doesnt equate to 'how many states' are needed, as all voting is by MEPs not by 'nationality'.

So, 126 MEPs to be precise, would be required, to vote in favour. How many do France and Germany have?

www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+RULES-EP+20170116+RULE-168+DOC+XML+V0//EN&navigationBar=YES

OP posts:
DrivenToDespair · 03/10/2017 08:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread