Ireland, Apple and the final nail

[Carolinesbeanies]

Possibly parking this here as this is going to be a slow burner, but as Macron is running the gauntlett avoiding the unions, his Finance Minister Le Maire, has succeded in gaining support from various EU states for taxing the likes of Google and Apple basically at point of sale on turnover. Ireland and Apple have already been brought to task over their tax arrangements, (appeals pending) but this latest proposal would have yet another catastrophic impact on Ireland.

Whilst I dont think it will actually get very far, several small states are already kicking back, the timing of this is bewildering. This proposal could see all US tech giants pull bases out of the EU. Its utterly nutty. The only reason I can see this even being tabled at the moment, is financial desperation in the bloc. I know the tax issues surrounding Google et al are extremely controversial and unpopular, but its not exactly new news. (And the EU should have avoided this whole issue in the first place) but why go for a populist policy now, that flies in the face of proposed global taxation deals, when the nett effect will be so detrimental?

Either way, it looks as though Irelands 'HQ' appeal is being utterly hamstrung by their 'benevolent' EU masters.

www.thelocal.fr/20170916/france-slams-silicon-valley-for-skirting-tax-in-europe

Caroline. The worst thing is that you probably genuinely believe what you have written. A bit like Nigel Farage's wonderful article calling on Ireland to join them.

Thanks to the EU Ireland is a modern, outward looking country where citizens genuinely expect the future to be better than the past and their children to be richer than they are. The same cannot be said for the UK.

"The EU are not a political party. It is a top down, decision making process. Its purpose is to centralise control, and they have formed a European Troika of unelected technocrats to do so. The purpose of this, is to prevent european citizens from exercising democratic control over their money, finance, working conditions and environment.

You have really got a bad case of it, haven't you? That paragraph of yours is Brexit-babble Bingo."

Actually, I should confess now, this bit is lifted almost verbatim from Diem25s manifesto. An organisation doing everything they can to save the EU. Its certainly not brexit babble.

I can assure you, I read all sides from all areas. Youd do well to do the same.

diem25.org/what-is-diem25/

www.bbc.com/news/business-41335002
'Rise in female workers suppressing wages, says OECD'

They have flooded the market with cheap labour, to a point now where labour costs cant go any lower.
Discuss how it is legal to pay women less, in relation to the statement on flooding the market with low paid labour.

Maybe you would also like to discuss the draconian measures taken by prosecutors when UK companies are found to have underpaid workers.

Throw in the eagerness of employers to pay a living wage instead of minimum wage, and let's then talk about employment tribunals where employees could always take grievances for a fair hearing and never, ever have to pay fees at all of any kind that would put a hearing beyond their reach.

The EU has an interest in the fate of its citizens who will remain in the UK after Brexit, including those in NI who are under the GFA entitled to identify as Irish and hold Irish passports. Then there is the invisible border that is all set to be patrolled by blimps, and the EU will of course take an interest in that. So plenty to consider.

You are of course completely wrong to assert that labour costs can't go any lower. Maybe you do not realise the implications of the phrase 'global Britain' or the fact that successful trade with countries where workers live in shanties or dormitories will involve lowering of labour costs?

And look - that pesky ECHR, sticking its nose where it is not wanted, making sure citizens have rights their governments do not want them to exercise:
www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/20/human_rights_court_rules_mass_surveillance_illegal/
Won't it be great when people can't go whining to Luxembourg or Strasbourg (or wherever) with all their petty concerns and the government can actually 'govern'?

à country which has never reconciled itself to its past - whether the brutality and racism of the British Empire, nor the losing of it.

You do realise that the overwhelming majority of people in Britain weren't even alive during the days of the Empire, and that a very sizeable number of its minorities come from former colonies and seem happy to live here?

It isn't something we think about. I am 53 and don't go around lamenting the loss of the Empire--something that ended before I was even born. I can barely remember life before we joined the EEC, as was.

If I asked most of my friends of a similar age they would look at me completely blankly if I suggested things would be better if the world map were painted pink again.

Ah, a little fringe group with "the end is nigh" placards...

Why am I not surprised that you might find that attractive?

I actually think you should be more concerned about Theresa May's efforts to take the demos out of UK democracy and take advantage of Brexit to institute an American-style libertarian revolution in the UK than whatever beef this self-appointed group has with the EU.

Most people who voted for Brexit are old enough to remember Enoch Powell and to have cheered him on.

Forget the keyboard warriors math, even the likes of David Davis seems confused, calling the Irish border "an internal border with southern ireland" after the results.

I have a democratic vote in the EU too Carolines, and I vote for candidates depending on their EU grouping. And when I see the likes of Guy Verhofstad taking time to visit both sides of the border and highlight the Irish issue for people, I'm happy that they are looking after my interests. (I'm guessing you're not a fan of Guy's ). It was Irish lobbying of our friends in the EU that helped put NI to the top of the agenda. It is clear from the discussions on UK media (and on mumsnet), that it is far from a priority for the British, whether brexiter or remainer and they would have just ignored the issue without being forced to look at it.

Actually as a FOM loving migrant, that is the only parliamentary vote I have so I treat it with respect.

I am 52, and have clear memories of BBC coverage of the NI Troubles. Funny enough, it was different from RTE coverage. It didn't include much by way of context.

Is it possible you were so immersed in the remnants of Rule Britannia culture that you failed to notice its pervasive influence?

"Ah, a little fringe group with "the end is nigh" placards..."

Founded by Yanis Varoufakis, you really should check who it is youre insulting Math. Fringe it certainly isnt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DemocracyinnEuropeMovementt2025

"I have a democratic vote in the EU too Carolines, and I vote for candidates depending on their EU grouping."

Im curious about this Usual. What do you mean by their 'grouping'?

Guy Verhofstadt will absolutely continue pressing for direct taxation on all EU citizens to pay for the priviledge of their so called 'benefaction'. If you are indeed a supporter of a Federal United States of Europe, then so be it. But you do need to understand you must give up your national governance to achieve it. I would suggest, the vast majority of EU citizens dont wish to do so, nor are they being asked.

"It isn't something we think about." Youre absolutely right Abra1d, but then the hate filled rhetoric wouldnt work if it wasnt bandied about.

Whats so damaging is, there are many who do understand that you have to identify and discuss the faults in the EU, to then fix them. Were seeing the result of derailing the debate. An ever increasing snowball, across europe, clamouring for 'independance', as the EU continue to refuse to listen, prefering the rhetoric and drive for totalitarianism.

Today 10:27 mathanxiety

Most people who voted for Brexit are old enough to remember Enoch Powell and to have cheered him on.

I somehow doubt that. I voted remain. I know plenty of leavers, though. Most of them are in their fifties. A lot of the people in the large northern industrial cities who voted leave are younger than I am. A lot of Indian people voted leave, too, as this LSE blog describes.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/

This is a repost of the deleted post. Ive of course removed, I assume, what was the opening contentious bit. Ill have to wait and see if its political censorship instead. But here goes.

=======

But, (and Im replying as one can live in hope that education on all sides is nothing but a good thing) its important to explain why the Eu have no interest whatsoever in the GFA. None. Not a jot.

Heres why. (Ill keep it short...ish) The EU are not a political party. It is a top down, decision making process. Its purpose is to centralise control, and they have formed a European Troika of unelected technocrats to do so. The purpose of this, is to prevent european citizens from exercising democratic control over their money, finance, working conditions and environment. Whilst Macron may indeed have been a short term 'populist' fire break, he has promised to continue EU policy and address the French labour laws and French fiscal policy (he won an election on a promise of austerity) to bring it in line with EU policy, in return for federal support and finance from the EU, and Germany in particular.

He is going to be utterly abandoned by the EU, even if he achieves his part of the bargain.

Why? Because Germany, has been running at negative interest rates for the last few years. Everything you save in Germany, you lose 2% on. Every year. Pensions are in negative interest. Further bailouts are looming. The EU need more cash. And fast.

Whilst Merkel goes to the polls this weekend, riding on a German 'feel good' high, (and she'll win, cause its really shit everywhere else in the world....apparently. Three cheers for a media that prefers reporting on Trumps tweets, than the US economy growing 3% in the last quarter, or UK export growth surging etc etc) Germans are about to vote in, more of the same. They are teetering on the edge. The one big hitter that is now holding the whole bloc together, is teetering on the edge.

Catalonia is of no interest to them. NI is of no interest to them. Gibraltar is of no interest to them. They are into fundamental life support mode.

I used to believe they had one option only. Enforce the euro on all member states and raid, then control the remaining nations currency. But they now, apparently, have a second option. Fundamentally change taxation laws and raid national piggy banks. (Hence my thread) Theres no third or fourth option.

They have flooded the market with cheap labour, to a point now where labour costs cant go any lower. They have regulated as far as they can do, to Super EU levels, they cant regulate any further. Theyve been part of the financing bubble, thats created housing markets now out of reach of the average worker, the consumer simply cant be squeezed anymore. Theres no where else to go.

This is why, its so important whether your remain, leave, in an EU nation or not, to watch these taxation proposals.

www.atimes.com/article/where-does-the-euro-go-from-here/

Here you go.

www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/hemicycle.html

Obviously I avoid voting for people joining the group where Nigel and his mates hang out, but as his mates are ADF and 5 Star, it's easy enough to work out . And Marine and her gang are also a bit of a no no for me. As you can see, lots of healthy parliamentary debate possible from a wide range of views, if the MEP that your taxes are paying for bothers turning up of course.

I live in an EU country where I have no parliamentary vote but where I pay my taxes. And I have no right to vote in Ireland as non resident citizens don't have a vote. Paying a tax to the EU where I do have a vote isn't that much of a stretch to be honest. And if a portion of my taxes end up there perhaps it's a more effective way of dealing with things.

Anyway, none of this affects you, now you are nearly free from the evil EU empire. You can entice all these companies to come to the UK, pay next to no taxes, and not even have to try to pretend to adhere to foreign health and safety regulations. It'll be great.

An ever increasing snowball, across europe, clamouring for 'independance', as the EU continue to refuse to listen, prefering the rhetoric and drive for totalitarianism.

Really? More like we've been looking at the UK clusterfuck that is Brexit and thought better in that out. Yes, it is an EU funded poll, but one that has been tracking opinion for years.

^A European spring? Latest Standard Eurobarometer shows Optimism is on the rise

One year after the referendum in the UK, an increasing majority of people in the EU are optimistic about the future of the European Union.

Close to a majority of Europeans are now also optimistic about the state of their national economy. Trust in the European Union is growing – it is at its highest level since 2010, and support for the euro is greater than it has been since 2004. Moreover, a majority of respondents, from eleven non-EU countries polled for the first time, say they have a positive view of the EU^

ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/Survey/index#p=1&instruments=STANDARD

OP. This isn't the first time you've written complete nonsense about Ireland, and been offensive to Irish posters in the process, to the point of MNHQ having to step to delete you.

I've drawn my own conclusions on your motives.

Golden Dawn sympathisers often cite YV, carolinesbeanies, somewhat misleadingly, but there we are.

From what May's just said, looks like not only is 'brexit' not going to happen, we might be using euros soon too.

math I was in the US in early 1980s. Coverage of the English colonialists war against the Irish was very different over there too.

Barnier, today.

With regard to Ireland, the United Kingdom is the co-guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement. Today's speech does not clarify how the UK intends to honour its special responsibility for the consequences of its withdrawal for Ireland. Our objective is to preserve the Good Friday Agreement in all its dimensions, as well as the integrity of the Single Market and the Customs Union.

Versus the £1b bung recipients.

@DrAlanGreene
If the DUP is opposing a special status for the North of Ireland then there is no way that these promises can be delivered. #florencespeech

As someone who has high savings and a tiny mortgage, I am confident that Germany is not the only place that savings are losing value in real terms, with interest rates less than inflation. We have the same situation in the UK , so don't really understand the point being made.

I personally am looking forward to interest rates going up. Doesn't mean that I am happy about the reasons - I think the UK is shooting itself in the foot - but I will benefit from it.

Abra1d - yes, Britain, or at least large parts of it, have not readjusted its self image to having lost the Empire. Coming from Ireland, it is obvious that Ireland as a country has little influence alone on global affairs. The idea of going it alone is unthinkable.

However, the UK self-image, particularly among those over 60, is that the UK is a major player who can prosper alone. If say the Netherlands repeated what the Uk has, and reached out to Indonesia and South Africa it would be an even greater laughing stock than the Uk.

Moreover, May often harks back to the UK's history of global free trade. This plays badly with the countries who were colonised and forced to trade on hugely unfair terms. Whilst no tariffs were allowed on UK goods, the UK imposed high import tariffs on Indian goods. And let's not mention the Opium war. Nor the effective enslavement of Ireland. Other countries remember Britain's buccaneering free trade very differently but May has no conception how badly this plays outside the UK.

Yes, I know it is the brainchild of Varoufakis. Hence 'fringe group with placards', and since YV is involved, it will disintegrate into little warring splinter groups because 'working well with others' and accomplishing his goals effectively are not his strong suit.

Im curious about this Usual. What do you mean by their 'grouping'?
MEPs associate in cross-national groupings in the European Parliament. The groups correspond broadly to philosophies of political parties of the MEPs in their member countries. For someone so opposed to the EU and all its works and promises, it's strange that you are unaware of how the European Parliament works.
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-parliaments-34574041

Here is an example of Irish MEPs' affiliation from 2009 to 2014:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_European_Parliament_for_Ireland,_2009%E2%80%9314

Here are the affiliations of the UK's 72 MEPs in the same period:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_European_Parliament_for_the_United_Kingdom,_2009%E2%80%9314

72 MEPs - how many would it take for the European Parliament to be a representative body, from a Leaver's pov?

Wrt your Asia Times article: news.gallup.com/poll/190883/half-americans-own-stocks-matching-record-low.aspx
The comparison between American equity rates and German rates is not a valid one for several reasons.

Investment is a necessity in the US for various reasons - first is the almost complete lack of a welfare safety net in the US, and the high price of university education is another. Neither of those conditions obtains in Germany, where payment of personal income tax is actually a form of investment.

news.gallup.com/poll/190883/half-americans-own-stocks-matching-record-low.aspx
Today, only half report having stock investments. This 22-percentage-point drop is more than double the changes seen in stock investing among higher and lower income groups...

...While a slight majority of Americans report investing their money in the stock market, it's a far cry from pre-recession levels that spanned 58% to 65%. Confidence in the stock market and levels of financial literacy have clearly suffered in recent years, and investment rates lag significantly behind the overall rebound the market has made.

While Americans are likely still recovering from the fallout of the financial crisis, the market's behavior over the past year hasn't helped regain their confidence. The Dow's major drops in August and September of last year and again in January and February 2016 are now behind investors, but the unpredictability of its trajectory may have hampered the plans of potential investors to join them in the market. Fewer Americans particularly those in middle-income families are benefiting from the recent gains in stock values than would have been the case a decade ago.

The American middle class has taken a huge hit.

Some graphics on the Leave vote:
www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/heres-who-voted-for-brexit-and-who-didnt?utm_term=.gabWj2OY1#.eonNWBa8E
Solid Remain support among middle-class liberals and younger working-class voters was offset by Leave-supporting older voters and affluent Eurosceptics.

This deadlock was broken by the relatively small group – 12% of the population – of economically deprived anti-immigration voters, who voted absolutely overwhelmingly to leave the EU, with Leave votes outnumbering Remain by a factor of 19 to 1.

www.politico.eu/article/britains-youth-voted-remain-leave-eu-brexit-referendum-stats/
Another graphic.

www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/opinion/englands-last-gasp-of-empire.html

The general gist of American opinion on British imperial nostalgia is represented in this article.