Ireland, Apple and the final nail

[Carolinesbeanies]

Possibly parking this here as this is going to be a slow burner, but as Macron is running the gauntlett avoiding the unions, his Finance Minister Le Maire, has succeded in gaining support from various EU states for taxing the likes of Google and Apple basically at point of sale on turnover. Ireland and Apple have already been brought to task over their tax arrangements, (appeals pending) but this latest proposal would have yet another catastrophic impact on Ireland.

Whilst I dont think it will actually get very far, several small states are already kicking back, the timing of this is bewildering. This proposal could see all US tech giants pull bases out of the EU. Its utterly nutty. The only reason I can see this even being tabled at the moment, is financial desperation in the bloc. I know the tax issues surrounding Google et al are extremely controversial and unpopular, but its not exactly new news. (And the EU should have avoided this whole issue in the first place) but why go for a populist policy now, that flies in the face of proposed global taxation deals, when the nett effect will be so detrimental?

Either way, it looks as though Irelands 'HQ' appeal is being utterly hamstrung by their 'benevolent' EU masters.

www.thelocal.fr/20170916/france-slams-silicon-valley-for-skirting-tax-in-europe

To answer the original issue in the OP, the proposed strategy is designed to hit superwealthy global corporations,
who currently avoid paying tax on more than a tiny % of their huge profits.

So, tax them on turnover, not on easily manipulated profit figures.

Of all the criticisms ever made about the EU, this thread OP is the most baffling.
Not many ordinary people sympathise with tax-dodging billions
Do you work for the Apple or Google tax avoidance dept ?

The EU Commission has already fined Google €2.42 billion for breaching EU antitrust rules, with threats of more to come if they don't obey the rules

• and Google are still in the EU and will stay here too even if they can no longer dodge paying tax.

Why ? Because they will still make very large profits in the huge EU market, just not super-ginormous ones.

".....and been offensive to Irish posters in the process"

Somerville, like you, I havent a clue as to who, what or where posters come from. Accusing me of offending posters for being Irish, simply by my taking a position that is assumed to be 'anti' Irish (though there are millions of Irish, my DH being one, who indeed fervently do not support the EU) is ridiculous. My intention is to challenge dickish, goady and divisive posters, that we have plenty of on MN. I certainly dont ask to check their skin colour first, as tbf, its utterly irrelevant.

This is the quirk of MN moderation however that surrounds the brexit debate and allows the 'all racists voted leave, so what does that make you?' statement to thrive. (or as here, "Most people who voted for Brexit are old enough to remember Enoch Powell and to have cheered him on.") Utterly removed from the thread topic, but why let that stand in the way of an opportunity to spout the 'youre all racist' message?

Every thread, (I cant be bothered to collate, perhaps MN could provide stats?) relating to Brexit on MN, will persistantly repeat the racist message and the racist accusation against posters. Have you any better ideas as to how to tackle that whilst MN refuse to?

Clearly calling posters racists, (supposedly indirectly?) is apparently far less offensive than a hubris quip about IQ, (supposedly indirectly?) and relies on demanding to know how a poster voted. If you stood outside a polling booth, saying the same to a voters face, youd be prosecuted. I wouldnt be prosecuted outside a polling booth for any IQ assertion, quip or not.

Bearbehind, has however, kindly copied in full, my 'offensive' comment, clearly unhindered by MN mods.

Shame this has derailed, but thats generally the intention of posters leading these threads down those routes. Irish tax arrangements are apparently routed with Enoch Powell. So there we are.

Ussually, Ive no idea where you are, but here in the UK we have no MEPs whatsoever in the majority PPE party in Brussels. I do agree with you however on MEPs not turning up.......

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/04/furious-jean-claude-juncker-lashes-ridiculous-european-parliament/

"Does anyone else notice how Guy Verhofstadt is such a huge bogeyman for Leavers?"

Guy Verhofstadt is Brexit co-ordinator for the EU parliament. Hes far from insignificant, so when he calls for direct personal taxation of all EU citizens at the expense of national taxation, you should listen.

www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20160908IPR41661/parliament-appoints-guy-verhofstadt-as-representative-on-brexit-matters

"So, tax them on turnover, not on easily manipulated profit figures."

This would be throwing every tax law, ever agreed out the window.

and relies on demanding to know how a poster voted
The only person I know who asked anyone how they voted was a leave voting teacher who asked all the kids to put their hands up to tell him how their parents voted.

Wonder if it was in response to this, theworld?

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/mp-bob-stewart-reveals-teacher-told-pupils-not-talk-to-his-son-because-his-father-s-a-tory-a3635326.html

No it wasn't. It was because he wanted to know. (primary)

though there are millions of Irish, my DH being one, who indeed fervently do not support the EU

No there are not millions of Irish who are anti-EU.
There are only about 5 million Irish in the first place, and the vast majority are enthusiastic about the EU. I believe a poll found that 88% of Irish people want to remain in the EU, with 99% of full time students in support, while 82% of Irish people thought the UK was out of its mind to vote Leave.

Verhofstadt's position as Brexit co-ordinator for the European Parliament does not make him in any way responsible for or a leader in tax policy. He is the leader of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe group in the European Parliament and that is where his influence originates.

Every thread, (I cant be bothered to collate, perhaps MN could provide stats?) relating to Brexit on MN, will persistantly repeat the racist message and the racist accusation against posters. Have you any better ideas as to how to tackle that whilst MN refuse to?

As long as that Farage poster is still available for C&Ping those who voted for Leave despite its very obvious Nazi overtones are going to be vulnerable to the charge of not caring that obvious racists were campaigning for Leave. You can perhaps dismiss the murderer of Jo Cox as an isolated far out fringe lone wolf figure, but if that poster went against all that the Leave campaign held dear, then it should have resulted in a Remain majority or a huge percentage of abstentions.

mathanxiety wish Mumsnet had a like button.

My dh's view: not all leave voters are racist but all racists voted leave. My two sisters who voted leave did so because they don't like foreigners. So swapping EU foreigners for commonwealth foreigners won't work.

My be not for your sisters The world but it would for me - not just the commonwealth though- and many others I know. There are always going to be people with much more extreme views than yourself no matter what side of an argument you may be on.

"Most people who voted for Brexit are old enough to remember Enoch Powell and to have cheered him on." Utterly removed from the thread topic, but why let that stand in the way of an opportunity to spout the 'youre all racist' message?

How is the statement on Enoch Powell fans unrelated to the thread with the title "Ireland, Apple and the final nail" and an OP that includes the schadenfreude-loaded Either way, it looks as though Irelands 'HQ' appeal is being utterly hamstrung by their 'benevolent' EU masters.

The anti EU term 'HQ' and phrase ''benevolent' EU masters' come straight out of the rhetoric of the Leave campaign, so analysis of that campaign for xenophobia, ignorance of the GFA, ignorance of Northern Ireland's position, and a cavalier attitude toward a neighbour who has been a friend in the EU for decades is necessary in order to pick apart the flimsy argument put forth (that despite being an enthusiastic supporter of the EU, Ireland is about to get a kick in the teeth from Brussels) and also to discern the motive of the poster of that argument (glee at the prospect).

Perhaps, Corcory, but you can always be sure that the extreme on the right in a campaign whose focus is 'immigration and what to do about it' is going to include Nazis. And if people weren't sure, then that poster should have dispelled doubts.

Most importantly, when the government already had it in its power to deal with immigration any way it wanted, you have to ask yourself what the fuss about immigration was really about?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

I have a question for OP.

How can you support a cause led by a man who supports the AFD in Germany? He is very keen to form alliances with them.

These are some of the things Afd advocate:

It regards single-parent mothers as a burden upon taxpayers and a disincentive to healthy family life, and says it would end the provision of state benefits for them. “The AfD is against the state financing the self-chosen single parent life model,” the manifesto says. It also advocates an end to the funding of state-run kindergartens, and favours young children remaining at home to be looked after by a parent.

Further socially disadvantaged targets include the mentally ill. The party argues: “Therapy-resistant alcoholics, drug addicts and psychologically ill perpetrators should not be kept in psychiatric hospitals but be put under lock and key.”

The AfD also suggests that handicapped children should not be included “at all costs” as pupils in regular schools because, it claims, their presence can impede other pupils’ progress. It wants the age of criminal responsibility to be reduced from 14 to 12. The party also favours dramatically cutting state benefits and introducing a flat 20 per cent tax rate, which would primarily benefit the wealthy.

The AfD’s proposals for history teaching in schools are equally radical. The party aims to end what it describes as the “current limitation” of history teaching to “the period of National Socialism”. Instead it proposes a “wider consideration of history” which includes more “positive aspects” of Germany’s past.

AfD election manifestos published in the run-up to last weekend’s state elections also contained proposals to compel museums and theatres to strengthen their identification with “German” as opposed to “foreign” culture

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/revealed-the-right-wing-alternative-for-germany-afd-neo-nazi-manifesto-targeting-single-mothers-and-a6939941.html

"there are millions of Irish,"

4.8m to be precise (2016 Census).

And in May 2017 - "A new poll suggests that 88% of Irish people think Ireland should remain in the European Union, while 99% of full-time students also share this view. The Red C poll published today, on Europe Day, also found that 82% believe that the UK should have voted to remain in the EU."

So actually less than a million.

But dont lets facts get in the way. After all, Brexit is based on anything but facts.

Well this can be very easily resolved, mathanxiety, theworldisfullofidiots, woman1107, are you calling me a racist?

Do you disagree that racism and xenophobia played a part in the referendum campaign?

Who knows, its certainly nothing to do with Irish tax affairs. Start a thread and ask Math, Im not interested. Apparently, the Labour Party arent interested either.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/25/labour-stitch-up-wipes-brexit-agenda-party-described-laughing/

(I am of course interested if youre calling me a racist. Are you?)

I would only do that if I wanted to make myself look like an arse, running around social media trying to steer an agenda, and I can assure you that is not my style.

Apparently, the zeitgeist has swept all in its path.

Why do Irish tax affairs have anything to do with Brexit?
Is this thread posted in 'EU Referendum 2016' in order to suggest that Ireland's position in the EU and Ireland's hopes of her position wrt Brexit and the GFA and border issues are not as secure as Ireland hopes it is, because the rest of the EU is getting ready for a smackdown?

Here is your elaborate house of cards:
(1) The EU are using the previous treatised agreement given to them by all member nations to set and charge VAT. Thats the sole level of their authority. All fine and in order.
(2) They then tacitly expanded their authority by 'silent' process. No where, at any time, have any nation given consent to the EU to decide corporate, or personal national taxation issues.
(3) Yet here we are, with Ireland in the dock, Apple retrospecively fined,
(4) and Guy Verhofstadt confident his suggestions could indeed be legally enforceable.
? ? ?

(5) Ireland absolutely need our support.
Here ^^ is your attempt to make your gentle readers believe that Ireland's back is:
(1) against the wall, and
(2) therefore Ireland shouldn't piss off the UK by standing her ground on the GFA or the border.

What interest could any Brexiter possibly have in rehashing stale old EU bashing phrases and ideas when the referendum has already amply broadcast the will of the people and all that's left to do is get your hat and not let the door hit you on the way out.

The negotiations must be going horribly. Maybe they will founder on the question of the GFA and the border. The EU has after all an enormous interest in its border, and all its implications for the integrity of the single market.

The establishment of the CCCTB requires unanimous agreement of all the member states, just as the ratification of any Brexit agreement requires unanimous agreement of all the member states.

And in the final analysis, the EU has an interest in Ireland not turning into a financial basket case that the German taxpayers would have to bail out.

are you calling me a racist
State racism is only one of the policies of the Afd, as you can see.
I asked how you can support a cause led by a man who gives succour to Nazis?

Leave leader, Farage hates gay rights too.

Nigel Farage to support controversial judge Roy Moore in Alabama election

^Donald Trump has endorsed Republican Senate run-off opponent
Ex-Ukip leader backs candidate who once said homosexuality should be illegal^

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/24/nigel-farage-alabama-roy-moore-donald-trump

I didn't understand that Carolinesbeanies
This is what UKIP thinks of their axis partners.