Ireland, Apple and the final nail

[Carolinesbeanies]

Possibly parking this here as this is going to be a slow burner, but as Macron is running the gauntlett avoiding the unions, his Finance Minister Le Maire, has succeded in gaining support from various EU states for taxing the likes of Google and Apple basically at point of sale on turnover. Ireland and Apple have already been brought to task over their tax arrangements, (appeals pending) but this latest proposal would have yet another catastrophic impact on Ireland.

Whilst I dont think it will actually get very far, several small states are already kicking back, the timing of this is bewildering. This proposal could see all US tech giants pull bases out of the EU. Its utterly nutty. The only reason I can see this even being tabled at the moment, is financial desperation in the bloc. I know the tax issues surrounding Google et al are extremely controversial and unpopular, but its not exactly new news. (And the EU should have avoided this whole issue in the first place) but why go for a populist policy now, that flies in the face of proposed global taxation deals, when the nett effect will be so detrimental?

Either way, it looks as though Irelands 'HQ' appeal is being utterly hamstrung by their 'benevolent' EU masters.

www.thelocal.fr/20170916/france-slams-silicon-valley-for-skirting-tax-in-europe

"Aw. It is great so many Brexiteers are so concerned about Ireland getting support in the face of Brexit the EU. "

Think youll find Im just one, but thanks for the promotion to 'so many'. And my concern isnt simply Ireland. But youre right though Cailleach, Id guess the majority of .....well either side, are cheering at the slapping down of Ireland and Apple and those despicable tax avoiding super rich american tech firms. Indeed, seems more popular amongst remainers. Hey ho. You get what you vote for in the EU.

Just for perspective, AOI turned over in excess of 100billion in 2016. Thats 100billion of International sales, going through Ireland. No wonder people are sweating.

LOL Ghost, Lloyds of London to move European HQ to.........Europe. Earth shattering news. Heres more world rocking news for you Ghost. All European HQs in all industries, will be based in .......Europe.

Whether they are then, as with AOI, a single office with 10 staff and a cleaner is yet to be seen.

Punitive? There is an appeals system. Being used at the moment. I'm not sure everyone in Ireland is cheering on the appeal, though.

As for the tax avoiding super rich. London is one of the biggest money laundering cities in the world. And who is going to look under the rock of British Overseas Territories banking. It was interesting to hear them speak at the Parliamentary Committee. The trade in passports as well.

Why is there such fervour (on the gov't's side) to seek a trade deal with the EU if it is going to be so unattractive?

Springbreeze, youre confusing 'HQs' with actually providing local jobs. They dont.

Weird statement in light of the fact that Apple for one has a factory in Cork and its campus in Cork employs many people - and it's not a call centre either in case you were wondering.

Apple came to Ireland in 1980. That is so long ago that there were barely any PCs and the internet was embryonic, to put it mildly. This is not a company that took advantage of Ireland in the wake of the financial crisis, dictated tax terms, and made themselves indispensable due to the desperation brought about by the crisis.

Google, Dell, Intel and Microsoft and others joined Apple in providing meaningful professional jobs in Ireland.

About 1 in 8 people in employment in Ireland have jobs directly as a result of foreign direct investment (all sectors). Each FDI related job contributes to a ripple effect.

Ireland's corporate tax rate of 12.5% on trading income has been in effect for decades. I do not think you understand how decisions are made in the EU if you think that ideas floated by Guy Verhofstadt are necessarily going to be written in stone.
Guy Verhofstadt confident his suggestions could indeed be legally enforceable.
Nonsense.

It will be interesting to see if AOI will be able to influence US tax reform. Frankly, the IRS is far more likely to be the instrument of government that will get its claws into AOI than any EU institution. If it comes to a tug of war between the EU and the US for companies like AOI and whatever taxes can be squeezed out of them, I suspect the EU will decide that a low corporate tax rate is better than nothing to tax at all, and well done Ireland for showing the way... It remains to be seen 'How low can they go?' when it comes to setting a tax rate that AOI could live with.

Or maybe the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man could come up with the big prize after all... Oh wait - Brexit. All of this is sounding a bit dog in the manger on your part, Carolines.

Have you realised what a disaster Brexit is going to be and decided to distract yourself by casting around for a topic that could yield a little schadenfreude for you to indulge in if pumped hard enough?

You are right that there will be no more referenda on EU membership, but wrong about why. It will soon be apparent that the UK has committed financial suicide in voting to leave the EU - the fate of Marine Le Pen's presidential bid illustrates that Europeans vote carefully.

These tech giants have utterly changed the world, and changed how governments cant now control media, information and propoganda to then control their people. In terms of 'democracy' the tech boom has liberated billions of people.
And you couldn't be more wrong on this either.
The election of Donald J. Trump was facilitated by Cambridge Analytica, using data mined by social media to identify prejudices and personality and to tailor candidates' messages to appeal to individual voters. If anything, governments now have the potential to control people to an extent that surpasses the wildest dreams of J. Edgar Hoover and his ilk. That power can also be concentrated in the hands of billionaires such as Robert Mercer.

Springbreeze, youre confusing 'HQs' with actually providing local jobs. They dont.
(I was quoting Carolines there).

when you have people like Guy Verhofstadt, wishing to give Brussels the power to tax all EU citizens directly, with no voice, no vote, no say or influence on how that money is spent, (and as weve seen in EU budgeting terms, where UK citizens pay one of the highest contributions, yet receive proportionally, one of the lowest returns), you realise just how far from basic democratic principles, the EU has gone.

Guy Verhofstadt justifies it by saying, 'citizens wont mind, as long as they end up paying what theyre paying now' meaning, Brussels must demand nations cut their national personal taxation on their citizens, (therefore direct cuts to national hospitals, schools, police etc) to be able to add on a new personal EU tax, for the EU council to spend where and as they please.

Someone needs to remind the EU they are not a democratic government, of some mythical nation. We digress slightly, but in losing sight of fundamental concepts, citizens are sleepwalking into a nightmare they cant do anything about or get out of.

...........
Just as long as you remember, Corcory, that all of the above ^^ is actually not factual.

Carolines is entitled to her opinion of course..

Does anyone else notice how Guy Verhofstadt is such a huge bogeyman for Leavers? It's almost as if they know no other figure in the EU and have latched onto him because it's necessary to have a face to go with the swirl of incoherent rage.

www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/getting-to-the-core-of-europe-s-case-against-apple-and-ireland-1.2960870
...a key part of Apple’s defence against the commission’s ruling is that Brussels is conveniently ignoring the fact that most of the tax on its European operations is due ultimately in the US because its products and services are created, designed and engineered in Cupertino, California.

However, the annual report also shows that, as of the end of September, Apple had not set aside any US tax provisions for a total of $109.8 billion of international earnings generated by subsidiaries based in Ireland. It categorises this money as “undistributed international earnings to be indefinitely reinvested in operations outside the US”.

The difference between that Irish tax on the profits, set at a headline rate of 12.5 per cent, and what Apple would have to pay US authorities if it repatriated the money to the US is $35.9 billion – a figure that the group refers to as an “unrecognised deferred tax liability”.

Apple is far from alone. London-headquartered research consultancy Capital Economics estimates that US companies are hoarding $2.5 trillion of cash overseas as they seek to avoid the 35 per cent US corporate tax rate.

US president Donald Trump has set his sights on sucking most of that back to the US to be invested in an effort to create jobs by offering a tax amnesty, where a one-off charge of just 10 per cent would apply to money sent home, as well as by cutting the country’s headline corporation tax rate to 15 per cent.

When Washington allowed companies to repatriate foreign earnings at a 5.25 per cent tax rate in 2005, they brought home more than $300 billion of foreign profits that year, five times the normal amount, according to an arm of the US Department of Commerce.

The trouble is, most of that money went to the companies’ shareholders in the form of dividends and share buybacks.

Morality apparently doesn't come into issues surrounding revenue. To a large extent, multinationals call the shots.

"Weird statement in light of the fact that Apple for one has a factory in Cork and its campus in Cork employs many people - and it's not a call centre either in case you were wondering."

Read the thread Math. Indeed, all your posts, as usual on mn, ignore whats actually been posted and makes you look an arse. But thats what happens when you run round social media trying to steer an agenda.

Le Maire et al are holding a summit next friday, 29th September to discuss further these proposals. So far France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Bulgaria, Latvia, Austria, Greece, Estonia are in support. I dont think we'll hear anything for definite till December, but if more filters out, Ill of course let you know ...... considering youre so interested.

"makes you look an arse. But thats what happens when you run round social media trying to steer an agenda."

Irony is alive and well.

Oh yes it is

What is going to happen with Apple is what the Irish Times suggests - deals will be cut. This is because ultimately German (and American) taxpayers would prefer to see Apple pay something than for the taxpayers to pay everything.

The rest of what you posted from your position on your high horse is fantasy informed by the motto 'We won the war'.

@GuyVerhofstadt
Ireland is crucial to the EU. The Irish border & all things related to it, are a priority in the #Brexit negotiations

The EU27 know what England's history has been with Ireland, even if the English don't.

And the EU will not take kindly to seeing the GFA, in which the EU and ECJ had such an important role, getting trampled underfoot in arrogant fashion. You can only thumb your nose so much at an entire continent of former trading partners.

"In short, why do companies from countries with low corporate tax, (such as Ireland currently offering 12%) now have to pay an EU decided rate of corporate tax on all products and services to trade within the EU?"

To avoid some EU members become tax havens with low wages and poor workers' rights. To ensure minimum standards of public service funding & to reduce resentment between member states about economic tactics designed to specifically undermine each other. This strategy protects EU citizens and improves relations between member states.

Hope.That.Helps.

There are times I really wish I had a lower IQ, then Id enjoy certain posters company a lot more.

Ermmm....arrogance much.
Before you continue to criticise Caroline, what have you read on disaster capitalism by Naomi Klein?

There are times I really wish I had a lower IQ

I dare say I'm not the only one to have a chuckle at this.

There are times I really wish I had a lower IQ, then Id enjoy certain posters company a lot more.

Wow

Sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander, OK?

"To avoid some EU members become tax havens with low wages and poor workers' rights. To ensure minimum standards of public service funding & to reduce resentment between member states about economic tactics designed to specifically undermine each other. This strategy protects EU citizens and improves relations between member states."

Ah, you mean govern. Ok.

Take off the tinfoil hat Carolines, might help with your comprehension of others.

The purpose of this, is to prevent european citizens from exercising democratic control over their money, finance, working conditions and environment.

Let's see what the working conditions and environment looks like in the UK once May's puppet masters get rid of all those pesky EU directives in these areas that help protect citizens from unscrupulous business practices.

Three cheers for a media that prefers reporting on Trumps tweets, than the US economy growing 3% in the last quarter, or UK export growth surging etc etc).

In 2014, the UK was the fastest-growing economy in the G7. Four years later, it will be slowest, according to the OECD’s latest forecasts. Even Italy is projected to outstrip the UK's growth. Those nasty OECD researchers talking down Brexit.

Its becoming apparent that thats all this is about. Its 'asset' stripping the weaker states, creating unassailable alternatives within the EU big hitters, and it stinks.

We in Ireland know what it's like to be colonized and asset stripped by bigger entities, thanks. And the EU has played an enormous role in helping Ireland emerge as a modern country, in ways too numerous to count. Big corporations like Apple run roughshod over smaller countries and managed to extract a very unfair deal (for citizens) from Irish politicians. They paid well under the already generous 12.5% corporate tax rate (.005% in 2014) and that is a key point for the Apple case. The EU argue this was illegal state aid to one country. I think that's fair enough.

Despite what you seem to think, Ireland's growth and economy is based on more than just a dodgy deal with Apple and the implications of this are small potatoes compared with the piles of shit the Brexiters are throwing at our economy and civil society.

We'll stick with the EU and put up with restrictions on tax deals rather than throw our lot in with our old friends who care so much about us, they fuck over our economy without a second thought and trample all over painfully negotiated peace treaties. The "we're off, sort out the shit we've left" British colonial mentality is very strong among the Brexiters.

Please, stop with the pretence that you give a shiny shit about Ireland, its economy or its people.

"I dare say I'm not the only one to have a chuckle at this."

I made myself laught too. Glad you all enjoyed 😁

"Big corporations like Apple run roughshod over smaller countries and managed to extract a very unfair deal (for citizens) from Irish politicians"

usuallydormant, and you then have the absolute right (at the moment) to change your government, change your politicians and ensure they set tax policy at the peoples request. Thats exactly what your national democratic system allows you to do. If this EU proposal goes through, you will lose any rights to determine your own taxation. Its as straight forward as that.

The EU are not a political party. It is a top down, decision making process. Its purpose is to centralise control, and they have formed a European Troika of unelected technocrats to do so. The purpose of this, is to prevent european citizens from exercising democratic control over their money, finance, working conditions and environment.

You have really got a bad case of it, haven't you? That paragraph of yours is Brexit-babble Bingo.

The proof that the EU is nothing of the sort is (1) that the UK is now leaving it, and all it took was a referendum and the filing of an instrument that was available to use in case of the UK wishing to leave, while (2) first sorting the complete clusterfuck that is Northern Ireland's relationship to Ireland and the EU in the context of the post GFA relationship between Ireland, NI and the UK.

I don't think I am alone in suspecting that the keyboard warriors shouting at Brexit sceptics that they are traitors, etc., didn't actually realise that NI was part of the UK until about a week after the referendum.