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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wrong homework

999 replies

HashiAsLarry · 31/08/2017 21:49

I'm no rtb but I'll give it a shot, though her efforts deserve much more than me.

The August negotiation round has, well, fizzled out in much the same way as any other. It's taken over a year to get to written position papers and there's still no clue as to a direction from the UK government.

Japan, meanwhile, is about to sign off on a deal with the EU. A deal we want to copy.

@faisalislam
^but if post brexit britain's trade deal with third biggest economy in world is to be based on Brussels' deal, what about rest? TTIP? Canada?
...when PM signs off statements like this on primacy of EU-third party deals, one wonders how temporary the temporary customs union will be^

The NHS is now launching a drive to recruit foreign GPs, like the ones that have left thanks to Brexit. It's a good job they'll be £350m a week better off now. Oh hang on...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
46
RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 12:25

Faisal Islam‏*@faisalislam*

BArnier says he sees the issue of N. Ireland as a "specific responsibility" - to maintain Good Friday, Common Travel and avoid hard border
"We ar not there yet" on Irish border solution says Barnier and "it will not preconfigure" the EU-UK solution
Barnier basically accuses UK of trying to use Ire border solution as wedge for EU-UK customs solution, suspending law
"This will not happen"
Key - BArnier: "it will not be possible for a third country to combine the Norway model with the constraints of the Canadian model"
Barnier giving voice to verdict in Brussels on the UK position papers - asking for all trade benefits of Single Market, without rules
Barnier says UK is "backtracking on its original commitments" (on bill made in July in Parliament by Davis) raises question of credibility
BArnier says the "debate is evolving" on transition in the UK - but the "UK needs to tell us what it wants" - we await suggestions

AFP news agency@AFP
#BREAKING EU Brexit negotiator says British proposal on Ireland 'worries me'

Bizarrely this has also been just tweeted:

Tony Connelly‏ @tconnellyRTE
UK DexEU source says govt welcome the EU paper on Ireland, "continues to demonstrate close alignment between UK + EU's objectives"

Tony Connelly reporting the same press conference as Faisal:

Tony Connelly‏**@tconnellyRTE**
.@MichelBarnier: says he's disappointed, UK appears to be rowing back on its commitment on financial settlement
.@MichelBarnier: to have confidence you need to balance the books in a legally sound position
.@MichelBarnier: we have to complete the whole process of explaining a joint position with the British about what the GFA means + CTA
.@MichelBarnier: we need to conlude political agreement, that will be "sufficient progress" as far as the Irish issue is concerned.
.@MichelBarnier: the second (future) phase of the talks will then go into the technical detail [about how to deal with the Irish border]
.@MichelBarnier: the debate on transition is evolving in the UK, I'm following it closely, but the UK needs to tell us what it wants
.@MichelBarnier: we are open to this [transition idea], but we await suggestions
.@MichelBarnier: I'm prepared to pick up the pace of our negotiating rounds with the UK

Ross Colquhoun‏*@rosscolquhoun*
Tories: UK may never recover from Brexit
Tories: SNP must mitigate Tory austerity
Tories: SNP must mitigate Brexit

Spot the pattern?
#FMQs

www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-eu-debate-shows-who-respects-parliament-a3629186.html
Evening Standard comment: EU debate shows who respects Parliament

George hard at work again.

Davis is in HoC making speech about the Repel Bill (not with Barnier)

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 12:27

Faisal Islam‏*@faisalislam*
Shorter Barnier - 1. dont try to use Ireland as a pawn to get an easy customs/ trade arrangement with Single Market, without rules

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 12:29

www.thenational.scot/politics/15519348.Scots_lawyers_attack_Tory_Brexit_Bill_for_Holyrood_power_grab/
Scots lawyers attack Tory Brexit Bill for Holyrood power grab

THE Law Society of Scotland has warned that the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill being debated in the Commons today “would remove the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament”.

In a stark and unusually brutal warning from the professional body, they describe the Bill as “complex, difficult to interpret and lacking in clarity”.

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 12:30

Faisal Islam‏*@faisalislam*

And shorter Barnier 2. UK reneging on July HoC recognition by Davis of commitments surviving EU withdrawal, raises trust issues

Trust issues = less willingness to give the benefit of any doubt and make any compromises.

HashiAsLarry · 07/09/2017 12:31
  • it's likely that automation will result in job losses in the future
  • marvellous, what can we do to help speed it up Hmm
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RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 12:33

Mirror Politics‏*@MirrorPolitics*
David Davis admits he "stands ready to listen" to Tory anger at Repeal Bill

Must be enough brewing for him to say that.

HashiAsLarry · 07/09/2017 12:38

Zoe Gardner @zoejardiniere
There are a thousand ways the leaked Tory post-Brexit immigration plan is designed to exclude the poor from the opportunities of migration
There's the obvious ones: the income threshold, the cost of visa processing, the clamp down on "low skilled" (read low paid) immigration...
But there's more; take the fact that EU citizens would need a passport to travel to the UK & no longer be able to use their ID cards...
As someone who has just applied for both a passport &an ID card in an EU country, I can tell you: the passport costs 85 EUR, ID was 50 cents
Lexiters hate to hear it, but it's true: Free Movement opens the option of mobility to the poor. Without it it's just a game for the rich.
Brexit not just about excluding immigrants, it's particularly about excluding the poor.

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Motheroffourdragons · 07/09/2017 12:49

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

HashiAsLarry · 07/09/2017 12:52

@sebdance (he of the 'he's lying to you' fame)
EU & UK rule out hard border in Ireland. Only logical solution is hard border GB/ island of Ireland. Wonder what the DUP will make of that.
Well this could be interesting.

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2017 12:58

The head of the Deutsche Bank has long wanted to bring back the bulk of the London work - and jobs - to Germany.
While the UK was the #3 power in the EU, that didn't make commercial sense
Now it does and he is proceeding full stem ahead

Brexit isn't much discussed here, except to shake heads over the UK govt delusions and competence

However, over the last several months there has been increasing confidence that any jobs lost as a result of reduced business with the UK can be made up for by the jobs that are shifting to Germany,
plus the accompanying support & service jobs.

Before, business were saying they'd make up lost UK trade by increasing the RoW trade - which Germany has done successfully over the decades, UK not so much.
Now some even suggest Germany could be one of the overall winners from Brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2017 13:14

Richard North latest:

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86597

a "senior EU diplomatic source with knowledge of Mr Barnier's feedback to EU capitals". He is cited as saying:
"The Brits have passed the threshold when anything 'bespoke' is possible".

Instead, we are told that Barnier is suggested that Britain will have to settle for an "off the shelf" transition deal, similar to the Efta/EEA option.

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 13:16

- it's likely that automation will result in job losses in the future
- marvellous, what can we do to help speed it up

I've got to say that I have issue with this as I don't think its that simple and we should be talking about the issues better.

This is an inevitability. There is a limit to how fast this can be achieved by any nation but every nation with the capacity is chasing this, and will seek to use international resources to achieve it. I'm not sure that the UK doing it changes that point at which it will happen ultimately. Its a relatively fixed point in the future within certain parameters.

There are also consequences to not being in the lead of this which are not necessarily good too. Its in essence something of an arms race. Putin has more or less expressed it in that fashion this week.

To my mind our political lack of understanding of technology is a major hindrance here, whilst Russia certainly seems to comprehend it. They won't be alone.

We have also shot ourselves in the foot too in this. There are already huge problems in getting people with the skills to enable this thanks to Brexit. Plus many Brits who have these skills perhaps are of the mindset where they might not wish to stay in the UK for their entire working career if opportunities present themselves elsewhere.

The future of automation and the effect of society that it will have does present problems to countries that are going through particularly big population increases. How will they support large numbers of people who no longer have jobs. The reality is they either train them to be able to work in this industry or they become a burden on society in one way or another.

This is perhaps why reducing the growth of population has a social argument to it. The trouble is the immigration debate currently going on, and the methods in which we want to try and do it is utterly flawed too. Especially given the size of our growing elderly population which will need supporting in different ways, and need that support now.

Of course a society with 5 million of these versus a society of 10 million of these has to have a better educational structure and be better at innovation. The UK has been able to compete with China because of this, but for how long, and without attracting people from the EU? Is our education system taking it seriously and equipped to cope with this change? (The answer here is no).

This is where humans being humans is such a worrying thing. Older people might be more against immigration but they also could become a scapegoat of the future within a culture which - through Brexit - has promoted and encourage and enabled discrimination.

Survival of the fittest is ultimately where this all is headed, if there is not a conscious admission and proper consideration of it all.

Stephen Hawking has said that AI puts humanity at risk. It does. In multiple ways, but at the same time, I'm not sure that you can stop that no matter what you do. The most you can do is be aware of the pitfuls and try and mitigate against those.

No one is doing this. Anywhere. This is the most worrying thing of all.

Lurking in the background is some sort of disaster that would take us back in terms of human progress. I think we are somewhat over due something truly catastrophic - though that makes me sound like a doomsday nutter. A health pandemic or anti-biotic resistance are the ones that sit in my mind most in the immediate future perhaps ahead of North Korea - though I might feel differently if I lived in Seoul. Climate change and attitudes relating and driving immigration policy are also driving big threats too, rather than somehow protecting us from them. How long before a terrorist attack using chemical weapons? Is our country in anyway, prepared for an event of any sizeable scale? The government response to Grenfell and its attitude of ignoring problems that stem from Brexit suggests we probably aren't. We spend too much time blaming symptoms of political and social problems on the wrong causes and deciding that the solution is something which only creates additional problems rather than addressing them.

I've said before, that Brexit itself is not necessary flawed as a concept. The reasoning given for it and being promoted as goals and the way its being approached however, is utter bollocks.

Brexit is ultimately flawed because it doesn't have a set of interlocking national goals and ambitions which is thought out in a comprehensive manner. Say we decided to pour money into education, tackled the absurdity of the home office in its inhumane and unlawful and unthinking way, say we improved the protection for workers and recognised the impact current working practises were having, came up with innovative plans to manage an aging population or basically had ANY sort of vision, it could be ok.

We don't have that. Things might be born out of necessity in the long term, but in the short term it throws too many people under the bus and doesn't produce any hint of long term benefit either for that reason.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2017 13:17

North also says:

"The localised vacuity Grin makes an interesting contrast to Germany
where the biggest industry group has set up a task force including companies such as Airbus, Siemens and Deutsche Bank "to prepare for a disruptive British departure from the European Union".

< very sensible. As the UK, ntbo, will be by far the most affected by Brexit, why hasn't the UK govt done this ? >

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 13:27

Steve Peers‏ @StevePeers
Five new EU Brexit position papers just published - Ireland, IP rights, customs, procurement and use of data:
ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations/negotiating-documents-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en

Steve Peers‏**@StevePeers**
1/ Give us this day our daily Brexit thread. Today's is on these five new EU papers.
2 First, the procurement paper. Procedures launched before Brexit Day should still to be governed by EU public procurement law. Reciprocal.
3 Sensible enough. But of course it leaves open what happens after Brexit Day, which EU doesn't want to discuss yet.
4 UK public authorities will presumably want to know in advance what procedures they need to follow for processes launched after Brexit Day.
5 UK bidders for EU27 procurement & vice versa will also want to know. EU27 public authorities may want to know if UK bids will be eligible.
6 Easiest way forward: keep applying EU law for a transitional period. Hard to negotiate new deal in 18 months left over after election etc.
7 Next, IP law. This applies to EU wide IP protection granted before Brexit Day: trademarks, designs, databases, geographical origins etc.
8 No mention of copyright, presumably because EU law has harmonised a chunk of copyright law but there isn't EU wide protection as such.
9 Some patent law mentioned, but not EU unitary patent, the court for which will be partially located in London. Legally viable post Brexit?

Just having a quick look at the data protection paper. I think its pretty significant and will fall below the radar. I hope someone with better understanding will have a good look at it.

This is the first couple of introductory paragraphs:

Essential Principles on the Use of Data and Protection of Information Obtained or Processed before the Withdrawal Date

It is recalled that the United Kingdom's access to networks, information systems and databases established by Union law is, as a general rule, terminated on the date of withdrawal.

The United Kingdom or entities in the United Kingdom may keep and continue to use data or information received/processed in the United Kingdom before the withdrawal date and referred to below only if the conditions set out in this paper are fulfilled. Otherwise such data or information (including any copies thereof) should be erased or destroyed.

Think about how this applies to scientific research or defence as a start point.

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 13:33

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7feb4e7a-93c2-11e7-8177-dcdb1e4e95ab
Tory group launches drive for a hard Brexit

Senior Brexit-supporting Tories are to launch a major drive to stop the government softening Brexit in a move that will deepen divisions inside the Tory party, The Times has learnt.

Tories on the European Research Group (ERG) which comprises 60 or more MPs determined to secure a hard Brexit, is circulating a letter to be published on Sunday by the chairwoman Suella Fernandes.

The letter, obtained by The Times, seeks to ensure that Britain is fully outside the European Union and pulls away from its regulatory structure from March 2019. This is likely to make a “standstill” transition deal and final deal with similar levels of access to the single market all but impossible.

Sam Coates Times‏**@SamCoatesTimes**
Exclusive: here is the letter being circulated around Brexit supporting Tories in the ERG

Sam Coates Times‏**@SamCoatesTimes**
1. The right to "sign" trade deals is a gvt aspiration not a policy. Brexiteers want it a red line
2. The ban on payments will make a standstill transition - of the sort wanted by Philip Hammond - very hard.

TSE‏*@TSEofPB*

Interesting that the ERG are afraid of Henry VIII powers for fear of them being used to soften Brexit. H/t William Glenn on PB

[RTB: raises an eyebrow at the latter comment]

Westminstenders: The wrong homework
HashiAsLarry · 07/09/2017 13:34

Absolutely rtb
It's definitely something that should be talked about in its seriousness, but it's also something to not hide under wrt brexit. Brexit will and is causing job losses already, whether those jobs exist or not in 10/15 years time is a different matter. Throwing the baby out with the bath water if you will.

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RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 13:40

More from Steve Peers Thread:

Steve Peers‏*@StevePeers*
10 All the IP rights protected pre Brexit to be reserved. Only some discussion of reciprocity though. EU should have explained why.
11 ie if feta is still protected in UK then UK cheeses with GI protection should keep it in EU27. Overall this issue is a big one for EU27.
12 Without GI protection any old swill could be sold as champagne. Rees-Mogg might say "caveat emptor". 21st century consumers may not agree

Starmer talking in the Commons atm. He just said that Davis knows in his heart of hearts that come exit day the ECJ have to be part of our arrangement. The cameras switched to Davis. He was sat with his arm behind his head and didn't flinch or otherwise pull a face. I certainly don't believe his body language wasn't arguing with what Starmer is saying. It was interesting to see. There was no jeering or sneering from him.

This follows Starmer hammering him over Davis's court case over civil liberties through the ECJ.

Starmer is now talking about the possibility of 'multiple exit days' saying "you might think I'm crazy" about suggesting it. Its actually not the most stupid of concepts imo.

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 14:02

www.theguardian.com/news/2017/sep/07/how-the-aristocracy-preserved-their-power#img-3
The long read
How the aristocracy preserved their power
Chris Bryant MP

After democracy finally shunted aside hereditary lords, they found new means to protect their extravagant riches. For all the modern tales of noble poverty and leaking ancestral homes, their private wealth and influence remain phenomenal

This gives you an interesting incite into why some quarters have quite a particular hate - and fear - of Corbyn.

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 14:12

Steve Peers‏*@StevePeers*
13 Again key question for later: does UK want to keep applying EU law for new products post Brexit? EU will be keen - but US not. Watch Dr Fox
14 The customs paper: a lot of detail on disapplying EU customs and VAT rules from Brexit Day. But this might be irrelevant for awhile.
15 Depends on whether UK still retains a form of customs union with EU temporarily as UK has mooted. Maybe also on customs cooperation deal.
16 So as with many other areas, no point discussing transition until future relationship is clearer. But EU insist on artificial separation.
17 Data protection: EU want EU law to apply if data in UK of EU27/non-EU data subjects in UK was processed before Brexit Day.
18 Immensely fiddly questions of personal, temporal and territorial scope. Here's what data protection lawyers will look like if it's agreed
[Photo of Harry Enfield's Loadsa Money]
19 Again, this really needs to consider what post Brexit rules for data protection in UK will be, ie if EU data protection law still applies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 14:18

IDS has just asked for an extension to the second reading of the Repel Bill.

He's not the first person to have asked for more parliamentary time over it. At least one Labour MP has already asked for the same.

That's both sides of the house and both Remainers and Brexiteers.

That in itself is significant. Didn't happen for a50. Brexiteers wanted to rush it through.

My point being, that there seems to be reservations about the bill from pretty much all political persuasions but perhaps for very different reasons.

This is also very much in contrast to the impression May gave about how the Lords Select Committee had endorsed the bill and there was no need for amendments.

I do think there will be amendments, though what they are, I'm not sure yet.

For example: Scotland's sovereignty is a key one for the SNP. Not sure how that sits with Scottish Tories but again, I think there is a shared interest here though for perhaps different reasons.

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 14:27

IDS has just said (echoing Starmer a bit here who was nodding along) to urge the government to think about the date from which the Repel Bill takes effect. By that he meant (I think) that its always been stated that this would be the day we left the EU. The suggestion is that it would not be that day but another day (I think the implication is this is a date AFTER the end of March 2019 and the end of the a50 2 year period but I could be wrong. My thinking on this, is in part because getting of the technicalities and detail required for this).

I'm not sure the EU will like this, but its a development worthy of note.

TheElementsSong · 07/09/2017 14:29

As the UK, ntbo, will be by far the most affected by Brexit, why hasn't the UK govt done this ?

Because that would be an admission that there just might be bad effects and disruption, rather than effortless smooth sailing on rivers of molten gold towards sunlit uplands?

howabout · 07/09/2017 14:32

Good read rtb even covering much of why the Reformation was nothing to do with religion. No surprise the HoL is so pro-EU. Not sure what Chris Bryant's excuse is?

LurkingHusband · 07/09/2017 14:39

Ah, data protection ... my metier:

The United Kingdom or entities in the United Kingdom may keep and continue to use data or information received/processed in the United Kingdom before the withdrawal date and referred to below only if the conditions set out in this paper are fulfilled. Otherwise such data or information (including any copies thereof) should be erased or destroyed.

Quite impossible as things stand. No system has the ability to implement this. Bearing in mind that the GDPR the UK is signed up to provides for financial recompense for subjects of incorrect data, the implications for business are enormous .

With nothing else on the table, this would be enough for the next 18 months.

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2017 14:44

Chris Bryant's excuse???

Why is there only one Remain camp howabout?

If we except there is the right wing Brexit camp supports by racists, one supported by elites (many of whom are aristocracy - like Rees-Mogg) and there are Lexiteers, why are you suggesting there is only one Remain camp?

Bryant's a remainer who thinks that workers rights and interests in the EU are better than they will be under a hard right version of Brexit which would make the aristocracy's position stronger not weaker.

There are many visions and perceptions of whether the EU is good / bad. Likewise Brexit.

We don't have to share the same to support / oppose.

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