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Brexit

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Westminstenders: Boom. The Brexit Backlash starts to hit.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/08/2017 00:49

So it turns out that immigration figures that stated students overstayed were wrong. The home office knew this. And sat on it. Since 2015. Under Theresa.

That smells a bit doesn't it?

Imagine it: "Let's do lunch Paul. I'll cover up and give you a nice immigration story for your front page. In return, crown me PM."

Then tonight BOOM. Labour look like they have made a move. Soft very swishy Brexit. Even less brexity than the Beano Brexit that the Tories have been trying to announce on the quiet over the summer whilst Brexiteers are on holiday.

amp.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit
Labour makes dramatic shift on Brexit and single market
Party opens clear divide with Tories, with support for free movement and paying into EU budgets for up to four years

Labour is to announce a dramatic policy shift by backing continued membership of the EU single market beyond March 2019, when Britain leaves the EU, establishing a clear dividing line with the Tories on Brexit for the first time.

In a move that positions it decisively as the party of “soft Brexit”, Labour will support full participation in the single market and customs union during a lengthy “transitional period” that it believes could last between two and four years after the day of departure, it is to announce on Sunday.

This will mean that under a Labour government the UK would continue to abide by the EU’s free movement rules, accept the jurisdiction of the European court of justice on trade and economic issues, and pay into the EU budget for a period of years after Brexit, in the hope of lessening the shock of leaving to the UK economy. In a further move that will delight many pro-EU Labour backers, Jeremy Corbyn’s party will also leave open the option of the UK remaining a member of the customs union and single market for good, beyond the end of the transitional period.

Why would Labour suddenly do this? It's not just because of the youth vote. What about their leave voters?

Faisal Islam on the subject:
2. On Labour Leavers is very very interesting and involves quite the psephological judgement re the election....
...the calculation appears to be that Labour Leave voters had the chance to vote for Theresa May's brand of Brexit, and bar 5 seats, said No
Was that because Lableave voters were already signalled "hard Brexit"? Or many millions such voters much more concerned about other things?

Have Labour been polling their voters on this?

Theresa has also apparently set her sell by date: Friday 30th August 2019.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-sets-date-shell-quit-11061894.amp
Theresa May sets date she'll quit as Prime Minister - giving herself time to see Britain through Brexit

The longer the transition and the squishier it gets, the more the more you wonder.

Mr Barnier will enjoy his coffee and newspapers tomorrow as he prepares for round two of Brexit talks starting next week.

The question on his mind most: Will David Davis remember to bring his notes this time?

OP posts:
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PebblesFlintstone · 31/08/2017 10:34

I am a longtime lurker who finds these threads very informative and am very grateful you keep them up, especially in recent days. I sometimes wish MN had a "hide poster" function.

thecatfromjapan · 31/08/2017 10:40

Yes.

And I'll add ... why the haste to rush the government into a 'Hard Brexit'? Weren't we all told that the EU was crumbling, and that disaster was imminent? Surely, an amble towards a 'Hard Brexiit' will just give folk ample time to see how right the doom-sayers were, as the EU economies continue to slide, and the trade deals fall upon the UK, etc. etc.

Oh ... hang on a minute ...

HashiAsLarry · 31/08/2017 10:44

@katie Martin fx
"staggering disaster"

In shocking news, it turns out Brits don't want to work on farms.

economist

Westminstenders: Boom. The Brexit Backlash starts to hit.
woman12345 · 31/08/2017 10:44

@JochenBittner in www.zeit.de/2017/30/fluechtlinge-medien-berichterstattung-studie/komplettansicht …: "The country has suffered under a media blackout."

I could only google translate a wee bit, but good to see a mainstream newspaper reporting on 'lugenpresse' Lying press's version of refugee compassion.

It is the migration year 2015, and the most important daily newspapers of Germany are transformed into folk education brochures. The journalists no longer control policy action, they control citizens' thinking. And because the life-reality of the same citizens could irritate the editors only with the applause clause for the government, it does not occur in the leaves at all

A study by the Hamburg Media School and the University of Leipzig seems to be proof of what is happening as a tale of "lie press" calls: In the refugee crisis, important German media have failed. Instead of allowing an open discourse, they stifled him.

The researchers, headed by the media scientist Michael Haller (head of the ZEIT dossier from 1987 to 1990), have analyzed thousands of articles from the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, the Süddeutsche Zeitung, the world, the picture and numerous regional newspapers, mainly from February 2015 to March 2016.

The almost 200-page study will be published next Monday by its sponsor, the Otto Brenner Foundation, which was close to the trade union. The judgments to which the authors come are drastic. In summary, the country has suffered from a journalistic power failure - and society has subsequently become dangerously divided.

Not only did the so-called Mainstreammedien (the study shows quite a little understanding of the term) come together in unison behind Angela Merkel's refugee policy, uncritically accept "slogans of the political elite" and spread a "euphemistic-persuasive diction" of the concept of welcome culture. Those who had skeptically opposed this line of government had become suspicious in the eyes of many journalists of xenophobia.

And despite all this, Merkel has continued solid showing in the polls and Afd's paltry performance, a bit like the ukips here.

Bigly and Hashi Smile

woman12345 · 31/08/2017 10:47

Brits don't want to work on farms I used to work on a farm. Jersey herd. Loved it! But bones a bit creaky to do it now. Grin Fruit picking is hard. But it might be a way of keeping the ultra brexiteers fit (and out of mischief)?

SixInTheBed · 31/08/2017 10:55

Cut and paste perfectly sums it up.

Why Little England Brexiteers miss the point of the European Union
via The Irish Times
www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/why-little-england-brexiteers-miss-the-point-of-the-european-union-1.3203765

LurkingHusband · 31/08/2017 11:04

www.businessinsider.fr/us/lengthy-transition-kill-off-brexit-young-voters-corbyn-may-2017-8/

(notice a French website - also there are graphs with the original article which need to be seen to make sense. I CBA to format the quoted text. Note how the only sure fire way to ensure Brexit is (a) be quick, (b) disenfranchise the young ).

QUOTE:

Why a lengthy transition period really could kill off Brexit

LONDON – One of the big fears among some Brexiteers is that calls for a transition period are merely attempts to thwart Brexit by pushing it ever further over the horizon.

These fears may seem paranoid. After all, those ministers calling for an extended transition are obviously not part of some vast conspiracy to block Brexit. Indeed, as the Financial Times reports this morning, the call for a more long-term phasing in of Brexit are now coming as much from Brexiteers in government as from Remainers. Those more sensible voices in government understand that an extreme and so-called "cliff edge" Brexit would be disastrous, not just for the economy, but for the very Brexit project they have spent their entire political lives pursuing.

But while the intention of a lengthy transition may not be to thwart Brexit, the result may very well be. In fact there are several good reasons to believe that a lengthy transition really could, just as the Brexiteers fear, ultimately lead to the end of the Brexit dreams.

One of the reasons that David Cameron came under so much pressure to hold an EU referendum from Conservative Eurosceptics was the fear that they were running out of time. Over recent decades Britain had become an increasingly urban, multicultural and liberal society, with public concern about Britain's relationship with the EU reaching historic lows in the years running up to the referendum. At one point shortly, shortly after Cameron became PM, just 1% of British people saw Europe as one of the most important issues facing the country, according to polling by Ipsos Mori.

In many ways last year's referendum was the last and best hope for the Brexiteers. Contrary to Cameron's belief that a calling a vote would "lance the boil" on the issue of Europe, in reality it inflated the boil to a size not seen for decades.

The British public is now highly concerned about the issue of Europe but that concern is one created almost entirely by the Brexit referendum itself. Had Cameron ignored calls from his party to call a vote then Brexit would have remained a non-issue for the vast majority of the British people.

One of the many big mistakes made by Cameron in the run up to the Brexit referendum was to rule out allowing 16-18 year-olds to take part. All of the polling showed that younger voters were overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU, while older voters backed Leave. With the final result so incredibly close, allowing younger voters could have been enough to switch the result the other way. However, it's not just the coming of age of Remainers, but the expiration of Brexiteers, that threatens Brexit. To put it bluntly, one of the big threats to Brexit is that Brexiteers are dying off.

This can be seen clearly in the latest polling by YouGov which finds that a majority of voters under 50 believe Britain was wrong to vote leave with 64% of voters aged 18-24 saying the same. If Britain were to agree a four-year transition period with the EU then it will be the best part of a decade between the vote to leave and Britain's final exit date. By that time Britain's demographics could look dramatically different. Whereas Britain's electorate was finely balanced in favour of Brexit last year, they are unlikely to still be so by 2023.

So far opinion polling has not shown any dramatic shift towards Remain since the EU referendum. However, this could easily change. With a pre-Brexit economic downturn now highly possible and with Brexit talks already floundering, it is highly conceivable that the British public will start to move away from Brexit. If we have learned anything from the past few years, it is that the public are in a period of high political volatility. While it may not currently seem likely that there will be a surge in demand to stop Brexit, it is easy to picture a scenario in which there quickly develops a widespread desire for a softer or more gradual Brexit. If over the coming year headlines begin to fill with reports of companies fleeing the country, with Brexit negotiations heading to meltdown, then calls for a delay or watering down of Brexit could easily gain traction. This combined with the demographic changes mentioned above could, over the course of a lengthy transition, turn the whole debate about Brexit on its head.

Labour's announcement this week that they are now in favour of Britain remaining in the single market and customs union during a transition period and possibly beyond was also highly significant moment. Not only will it help unite the Labour party on the one big issue still dividing them, but it is also a clear sign of how the politics of Brexit are gradually shifting away from the hardline position previously taken by Theresa May and to a lesser extent Jeremy Corbyn. With Labour now the bookies favourites to form the next government, the future of the Brexiteers' dream is looking more vulnerable than ever.

It is partly because of this reality that so many Conservative MPs remain so opposed to ousting Theresa May. The fear among Tory MPs is that any change of leadership would force an early general election, which in turn would both bring Corbyn to power and kick Brexit into the long grass. This belief, which now unites Tory MPs from across the party, is the biggest factor keeping May in Downing Street. Put simply, Tory MPs want May to remain, in the hope that in the meantime "something will turn up." But simply clinging onto nurse out of fear of something worse is not normally a winning political strategy. And as the months and years pass, the forces that could yet remove May from Downing Street and keep Britain in the EU are only likely to grow.

celeste4 · 31/08/2017 11:07

You can see Brussels tactic a mile off. They will not agree to initial negotiations unless they are on their terms whilst constantly leaking details of negotiations to the media, and ultimately try and delay trade negotiations as much as possible in order to turn British people against Brexit and force a second vote.

LurkingHusband · 31/08/2017 11:09

I do wonder how much "Fake News" is a more Anglophone phenomenon ????

No one I know that can (and does) read non-English reporting ever takes the English story uncorroborated. Which mirrors non-UK friends who take news in 2 or 3 languages as a matter of course.

If you wanted a conspiracy theory, the continued dismissal of modern languages in UK education makes it so trivial to flood the monolingual MSM with lies that it must have been planned HmmHmmHmmHmm

prettybird · 31/08/2017 11:20

I am getting very irritated at our MSM I'm looking at you BBC for not pointing out that the EU has had its position papers published for months, in contrast to the UK Government which is leaking publishing ita own position papers (although I hesitate to call them that as they are so lacking in detail and full of wishful thinking) in dribs and drabs and then acting surprised that the EU doesn't accept them or points out that they are not technically feasible. Hmm

The difference in transparency is embarrassing.

For those that are genuinely interested - and not taken In by the UK Government's attempt to pretend otherwise, it is easy to find the EU position.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations/negotiating-documents-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdomen?fieldcoretagstid_i18n=351&page=2

HashiAsLarry · 31/08/2017 11:22

Pre ref: the eu are not transparent
Post article 50: the eu are too transparent

When someone agrees to something then decides it's changed it's mind it's not the other party's fault that there are delays.

HashiAsLarry · 31/08/2017 11:27

Following on from pretty David Allen Green has handily pulled a webpage together with links to all the position papers etc for both sides
http://jackofkent.com/brexit-negotiations-resource-page/

RandomlyGenerated · 31/08/2017 11:29

They will not agree to initial negotiations unless they are on their terms

Ah yes, the terms of reference identified and agreed by both the UK Government and EU:

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/620409/Terms_of_reference_for_the_Article_50_negotiations_between_the_United_Kingdom_and_the_European_Union.pdf

constantly leaking details of negotiations to the media

Darn that EU website that publishes all the EU negotiating papers in advance.

borntobequiet · 31/08/2017 11:30

The EU timetable and requirements have always been clear. Positions were laid out in detail well before talks began.

ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations_en
Why would they need to leak? Anyone can find out what the EU positions are. The UK on the other hand has published nothing detailed and is relying on what David Davies calls "constructive ambiguity"...I thought he had invented this but later found it's credited to Henry Kissinger and according to Wikipedia is:
"The deliberate use of ambiguous language on a sensitive issue in order to advance some political purpose. Constructive ambiguity is often disparaged as fudging."
God we are so fucked.

borntobequiet · 31/08/2017 11:31

Sorry cross posted...

LurkingHusband · 31/08/2017 11:33

(sings) Henry Kissinger ... how I'm missing ya,
you're the statesman of my dreams...

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 31/08/2017 11:47

Dh has a finance related job

He is giving a presentation soon to business people about what it happing so far with brexit. He read it to me yesterday

He caveats it by saying that he will try and not be too political

He fails Grin

Corcory · 31/08/2017 11:48

My view of the 'negotiations' is very likely to be quite different from most who post on here. We hear the constant refrains of 'little Englanders' 'Cake and eat it', and 'Arrogance'. But I feel that we have to look at the UK position. We have to start our negotiations somewhere. We have to have our starting point on each point under discussion. So why wouldn't we ask first for our most wished for situation? Why would we start negotiations already agreeing to loosing loads? We need to start somewhere. But we also need some movement - on both sides!! That is what negotiations are.

prettybird · 31/08/2017 11:50

Darn that EU website that publishes all the EU negotiating papers in advance.

In contrast to the UK Government's approach which is to issue a strictly embargoed Press Release to make the weekend papers not even to Parliament that........ShockShockShockShock

ShockShockShock

.....it is going to publish some more dog's breakfast wishful thinking Position Papers in the next week Confused

LurkingHusband · 31/08/2017 11:51

We have to start our negotiations somewhere.

Very true. and before we waste the EUs time, we could start by deciding what Brexit means before going any further.

Does anyone remember the John Cleese training video about effective meetings ? Clearly HMG don't.

LurkingHusband · 31/08/2017 11:52

I may have posted this before. Worryingly it predates Brexit, so might have actually been an inspiration ...

prettybird · 31/08/2017 11:53

Borntobequiet - no need to apologise. We're just illustrating that some of us haven't been taken in by the Government's con story that it's all the EU's fault, leaking and changing the goal posts.

The fact that so many of us were so quickly able to point out the fallacy is testament to that Smile

RedToothBrush · 31/08/2017 12:02

Press conference from Barnier and Davies going on at the moment.

Do I need to post more that this?:

Peter Foster‏*@pmdfoster*
Barnier: We are "quite far" from saying sufficient progess has been made in #Brexit talks to move onto trade.

OP posts:
RandomlyGenerated · 31/08/2017 12:06

Corcory the problem isn't the UK's starting wish list as such - it's how slow the UK has been in putting together and publishing the initial negotiating position and the lack of detail as to how the UK could make that work.

LurkingHusband · 31/08/2017 12:06

Darn that EU website that publishes all the EU negotiating papers in advance.

Not really an issue. Very few committed leavers are going to be trawling the EU website, much preferring to have their prejudices stroked in English by the UK press.

And who cares what Remainers learn from such things ?? After all, it's the sort of Britain-bashing treachery we've come to expect from that nasty fifth column. I mean, facts in policy. It's all terribly continental Minister ....