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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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PattyPenguin · 23/08/2017 07:11

Also a news story in the Graun
www.theguardian.com/money/2017/aug/23/thousands-still-unable-to-claim-free-childcare-after-hmrc-site-problems

Doesn't that bode well for a) the customs IT system already being developed and b) any further IT systems required after March 2019?

BigChocFrenzy · 23/08/2017 07:12

Richard North latest: tearing apart the govt proposals and delivering his usual dire warnings:

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86581

"....exports to the EU, to the value of anything up to a hundred billion pounds or more, each year, could be at risk.
If their approvals are no longer valid after Brexit, then they will be turned away from the EU borders if entry is sought.
.....
Chaos at the ports could bring the flow of goods to a complete halt – import and export.

If that resulted in empty supermarket shelves, that could have a profound impact on public order and the governance of this country – something we cannot allow to happen."

< but this govt could easily blunder into>

BigChocFrenzy · 23/08/2017 07:18

I think we all expect that any solution depending on a massive "innovative" new govt IT scheme - that is not even in the tendering / specs stage - is ridiculously optimistic

Painful history tells us such IT tech would not be delivered on time, won't handle all the cases it needs to and will crash.

Why keep repeating the same old mistakes, just on steroids ?

BigChocFrenzy · 23/08/2017 07:28

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/22/airports-call-for-urgent-post-brexit-deal-on-uk-eu-flights

[UK] Airports have joined forces to press the government to urgently strike a post-Brexit deal on flights between the UK and the EU,
warning that the current uncertainty alone would be enough to see bookings drop by up to 41%.

A report submitted to ministers by the owners of Manchester, Stansted, Heathrow, Gatwick and London City airports concludes that
even if flights are not interrupted in March 2019 when Britain leaves the EU
passenger numbers are likely to be hit hard without early assurances.

woman12345 · 23/08/2017 07:41

Poverty is sign of mental illness?:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41017972
Feeling squeezed? It may be all in your head Hmm

So where does that leave these employers?

A survey of 601 employers by the Recruitment and Employment Confederation (REC) found 31% expect the economy to worsen, with only 28% expecting it to improve
.
^Employers' confidence has worsened since the last survey in July.
REC chief Kevin Green said the decline should "raise a red flag" and called for greater clarity over Brexit^

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41012279

Confused
BigChocFrenzy · 23/08/2017 07:42

A btl Guardian comment which I hope is untrue, but unfortunately fits in with all the other reports of govt rejecting "negative" opinions from business:

" last summer the top execs at Pfizer, Glaxo, Astra Zeneca et al spent weeks writing a joint report on the (overwhelmingly negative) issues around Brexit - loss of the EMA etc for the DexEU dept

it was returned by the DexEU civil servants with a comment that simply read "too negative"

LurkingHusband · 23/08/2017 07:45

Painful history tells us such IT tech would not be delivered on time, won't handle all the cases it needs to and will crash.

Works.
On time.
On budget.

Pick any two ....

Motheroffourdragons · 23/08/2017 08:01

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

TheElementsSong · 23/08/2017 08:45

it was returned by the DexEU civil servants with a comment that simply read "too negative"

I wish I could do a shocked face. But if true, I wouldn't be surprised. Having had the misfortune to read some of the more recent contributors to the Barmy Arms - they're probably working at DexEU Grin

woman12345 · 23/08/2017 09:00

Current brexit debacle the 'longest suicide note in history' for tories:

@britainelects Aug 21
35% of Britons approve of Jeremy Corbyn,
31% approve of Theresa May. Latest job approval ratings:

@OpiniumResearch
@britainelects Aug 20
47% of Britons now disapprove of Theresa May's handling of Brexit:

@brtnelexben Aug 19
With little sign of fading, Labour's rise from 26% mid-April to 42% now has been quite something.

@britainelects Aug 19
Westminster voting intention:
LAB: 43% (-)
CON: 40% (-1)
LDEM: 6% (+1)

SwedishEdith · 23/08/2017 11:24

Leaked document: the Home Office assessment of post-Brexit terror and crime risks

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/leaked-document-the-home-office-assessment-of-post-brexit-terror-and-crime-risks-gjc6zngmb?shareToken=320c949a69c926646dd31eb15eacd465

LurkingHusband · 23/08/2017 11:41

SwedishEdith

far too much detail and facts. Can we please go back to infantile name calling ?

SwedishEdith · 23/08/2017 11:44

It is very loooong. I'll wait for someone reliable to do the reading for me.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/08/2017 12:07

DD seems to be like the idiot managers whose I'm sure most of us have come across:

  • Hasn't a clue about the situation
  • Remains clueless after people, who do know, explain
  • Requires a PPT 1-pager with Font 24 and no more than 3 short items
  • Rejects as negative any reports other than sunny uplands
  • Still clueless
  • Doesn't know what to do

I've heard complaints from Leavers that Barnier's ability is being bigged up somehow.
He seems clever & competent, which admittedly makes him appear a genius when compared to "thick as mince"

LurkingHusband · 23/08/2017 13:15

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/844799/Brexit-news-position-papers-UK-trade-European-Union-video

Chances of Brexit trade deal DYING FAST as UK and Brussels remain MILES apart in talks

FORMER diplomatic heavyweight Peter Westmacott warned the UK of possible delays in securing a new trade deal because of a gulf in priorities London and Brussels.

The former Uk ambassador to the US suggested it will take time for the UK to secure a new trade deal because of the priorities it has set for the Brexit negotiations.

The United Kingdom has repeatedly reiterated that its main goal is to secure a new trade deal with the EU but its stance has clashed with the EU27's demands.

Discussing the ongoing talks with the EU27 on CNBC, Sir Westmacott said: "“The problem is that the Europeans are determined to have sufficient progress on their early priorities."

Among such priorities are the Brexit divorce bill, the issue of the Irish border and the future status of EU citizens living in the UK.

Throughout the negotiations, the United Kingdom has remained firm in its intent to strike a new trade deal as soon as possible to avoid disruption

Sir Westmacott praised the Government for releasing a series of Brexit papers clearly explaining its goals at the negotiating table with Brussels.

He said: "I’m pleased to see a degree of engagement and I hope that we can now get on with the proper negotiation because this is existential for our country.

"We’ve got to make a success of it."

EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier responded to the Brexit positions papers on Twitter.

He wrote: "3rd round of Brexit negotiations with UK begins next week. Focus on orderly withdrawal. EU positions clear and transparent since day one.

"Looking forward to discussing these papers with the UK. Essential to make progress on citizens' rights, settling accounts and Ireland."

Brexit Secretary David Davis is due to resume talks with Mr Barnier next week.

Artisanjam · 23/08/2017 13:18

FFS I know its the Express but its Sir Peter or Mr Westmacott, not Sir bloody Westmacott.

PattyPenguin · 23/08/2017 14:01

I don't think it's irrelevant, Artisan. The Express, a rag whose mantra is Everything British Is Great And Everything Forrin Is Rubbish, can't get a title only used in Britain right.

Says it all.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/08/2017 14:05

So I'm LadyFrenzy instead of LadyChoc ? NO.

SwedishEdith · 23/08/2017 14:44

Steve Bullock‏ @GuitarMoog 10m10 minutes ago

Consensus emerging from Twitter's legal fraternity that today's UK Paper is a largely reasonable options paper. Well done Gov lawyers 1/

Steve Bullock Retweeted David Allen Green
As @davidallengreen said, it is somewhat late, but it is welcome and perhaps shows reasonableness creeping into Gov.

"David Allen Green @davidallengreen
8. It is the sort of paper which should (and could) have been
published before the referendum vote, not a year after."

The question remains of course as to what the hell the point was in burning so much goodwill and neg'ing capital over this in last months 3/

I am also not entirely convinced that EU Citizens' rights can be truly guaranteed under the sorts of arrangements proposed 4/

Although I am very happy to be corrected by lawyers on that if the suspicion is I'll-founded 5/

Finally though, this will be for nought if there is no solution on NI/Ireland border or enhancement in the financial settlement 6/

The EU27 is rightly not joking about needing sufficient progress, and what constitutes that is solely their decision. 7/

PattyPenguin · 23/08/2017 14:59

BigChocFrenzy I had you down as double-barrelled - Lady Big Choc-Frenzy.

With Big being a posh diminutive of a name like Berengaria or even Margaret.

OlennasWimple · 23/08/2017 15:03

How can we Make Britain Great Again if we can't even get titles right? Pft

SwedishEdith · 23/08/2017 15:08

EU citizen detention letters sent in error

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41027671

RedToothBrush · 23/08/2017 15:12

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/23/britain-could-remain-under-direct-control-of-european-court-for-years-brexit
Britain 'could remain under direct control of European court for years'

Scale of Theresa May’s climbdown revealed as UK faces having to implement ECJ rulings on key issues such as immigration

Britain could remain under the direct control of the European court of justice for years after Brexit, it has emerged, and still be forced to implement the court’s rulings on vexed issues such as immigration.

The expanding scale of the prime minister’s climbdown over her promise to “take back control of British law” was revealed as the government published its latest position paper on dispute resolution before the next round of Brexit talks.

While stressing that the range of options it contains are hypothetical, the government outlines only scenarios in which “direct” ECJ authority is eventually replaced by a new court or committee over which Europe maintains “indirect” control.

It has also become clear that the UK government is now open to preserving the direct authority of the ECJ throughout the interim transition period after March 2019 – during which it is expected to spend years negotiating a new trade agreement.

News of the government’s evolving position has led to a growing political storm this week, with Tory Brexit supporters claiming Theresa May is abandoning the hardline position she set out in last year’s Conservative party conference speech and in a speech at Lancaster House in January.

Before the launch of the new policy paper, the justice minister Dominic Raab conceded the UK would have to keep “half an eye” on rulings by the European Union’s highest court in future.

“The UK will engage constructively to negotiate an approach to enforcement and dispute resolution, which meets the key objectives of both the UK and the EU in underpinning the effective operation of a new, deep and special partnership,” concludes the policy paper.

However, in the run-up to the publication of the paper, May insisted ministers had not climbed down over the role of the ECJ. She said the UK would “take back control” of its laws after being accused of a climbdown on axing links with European courts.

Speaking during a visit to Guildford, the prime minister said: “What is absolutely clear, when we leave the European Union we will be leaving the jurisdiction of the European court of justice. Parliament will make our laws. It is British judges who will interpret those laws and it will be the British supreme court that will be the arbiter of those laws."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Erm yes. Exactly what was said, last year. But no one in government wanted to listed to.

We have Dominic Raab a rabid leaver admitting this.

Also remember the 'Law of Theresa May'. Whenever she says absolutely clear, its not and the reality is usually exactly the opposite to whatever she's prattling on about.

[Goes back to quietly sitting, watching and eating my popcorn as the shit hits the fan and the government wake up to reality we all knew already and realise what Thatcher knew]

OP posts:
SwedishEdith · 23/08/2017 15:25

She's so pointlessly stupid. As soon as she became PM she could have acknowledged the closeness of the vote and that navigating a solution was going to be difficult. That's it. But instead, she was terrified of the Bones and Redwoods. Unless, unless, unless this was always her plan and she's prepared to take the knocks and criticism to steer the UK to a workable position. There's part of me that's always wondered that. Hard to tell now what is wanton foolishness and what is real though.

woman12345 · 23/08/2017 15:30

Britain 'could remain under direct control of European court for years'
Smile
Thanks for the David Allen Green thread Swedish; must be required reading for gov lawyers.