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Brexit

Westminsterenders: The Ersatz ImitationThread

968 replies

OlennasWimple · 25/07/2017 20:59

I am no RedToothBrush, so I'm not going to try to emulate her exception OP style.

Here, though, in the interests of carrying on our conversations about WTF is going on with Brexit and the weird political world we find ourselves in right now, is a sort of continuation thread

(Hurry back Red, we need you!)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
BigChocFrenzy · 03/08/2017 22:12

(paywall) Without a Brexit divorce deal, all the transition talk will have been a waste

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/without-a-brexit-divorce-deal-all-the-transition-talk-will-have-been-a-waste-c5s2rzd9s
.....
There was never the slightest chance that the UK and European Union would be able to negotiate and ratify both a divorce agreement and a new free trade deal in the two years allowed under the Article 50 timetable,

let alone the 21 months that remained after Theresa May squandered the first three of those months on a snap general election.

So the fact that it has taken until now for the cabinet to accept that a transitional deal will be essential
— even as government policy remains that a Brexit trade deal can be agreed by March 2019 —
is alarming.
.....
Only now is it dawning on the political class that a transitional deal cannot possibly take the form of interim membership of the European Economic Area alongside Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein:

not only is the area outside the EU’s customs union
— and so does nothing to shield the UK from one of the most damaging Brexit cliff edges —
but securing temporary membership would require complex, time-sapping, negotiation in its own right.^
^
The only plausible transitional deal is a standstill arrangement under which the EU and UK agree to maintain all existing rights and obligations for a limited period of time

The EU Commission realised this nearly a year ago and it is clearly set out in the EU’s negotiating directives.

Yet even now, some in the UK still fantasise about a bespoke interim deal that would allow it to restrict EU immigration or sign new trade deals during the transition.

Some Brexiteers also worry that a standstill transitional arrangement could end up becoming permanent or, worse, a ruse to enable the UK to slip back into the EU.
These fears too are unreal.

A standstill agreement must inevitably be time-limited not just because the EU has itself ruled out any open-ended deal but because one is impossible under World Trade Organisation rules:

the EU cannot offer the UK indefinite preferential market access without a comprehensive trade deal.

And once Britain leaves the EU on March 29, 2019 there is no path back on its current terms.
If it wanted to rejoin, it would have to submit a new membership application,
which under the EU treaties would require it to commit to joining the euro and the Schengen passport-free travel zone.

By the same token, the window of opportunity for those who want to reverse Brexit will slam shut in March 2019.

But what is most unreal about the current debate is the way it has diverted attention from the core issue at the heart of Brexit:

what is the UK proposing to transition to?
....
In essence, the UK must choose between
being a rule-taker, keeping preferential access to EU markets in return for continuing closely to follow EU rules and most likely continuing to accept indirect European Court of Justice jurisdiction via the European Free Trade Association court,

or becoming a rule-maker, gaining greater scope to pursue its own trade deals but facing new barriers to entry to EU markets.

What is impossible
— as much of the government now appears to accept —
is Boris Johnson’s fantasy of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it Brexit;

or as one senior EU official puts it,
“the UK cannot have a deal that gives it Norway’s degree of market access in return for Canada’s obligations”.

....Downing Street is still far from resolving this dilemma, officials acknowledge.
....
Mrs May doesn’t have long to make up her mind.

After all, the UK and EU are due to start discussing their future relationship in October,
assuming sufficient progress has been made on resolving outstanding questions over citizens’ rights, the UK’s financial obligations and the Irish border.

Unless she can quickly unite her government, her party, parliament and the country behind a realistic vision of a future relationship, there won’t be a divorce deal.

And without a divorce deal, all this debate about transition will have been a complete waste of time.

mathanxiety · 03/08/2017 22:32

If the EU wants to move the European Medicines Agency away from London that's up to them. If they failed to negotiate the correct terms for concluding the tenancy early, any associated costs are down to them, not us, and they can whistle for the money the same as they can whistle for their illegal 'divorce' bill.

Interesting use of the terms 'they' and 'them'.
You do realise that the UK (it's not just 'Britain') is still part of the EU, and as such always had a say in how EU agencies conducted their business.

Since when does a departing party not have to settle their bill first? This question goes for both the departing EMA and the UK in its entirety.

All the terms of membership should have been fully known to UK politicians for decades; it is not up to the other members of the EU to make up for any shortfall caused by a departing member not making good on the terms of its membership agreement.

LOL at 'jobs for EMA staff in 'Britain'.
That flushing sound you may have got accustomed to is the sound of science jobs heading for the coast.

Brexit is not about money???
news.images.itv.com/image/file/1019912/stream_img.jpg

i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article7943774.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/JS89532410.jpg
"Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week"

Ceto · 03/08/2017 22:37

That Munby judgment in the suicide case is brilliant. Hunt should really have been summoned to court to explain precisely how such a disgraceful state of affairs could ever have arisen.

Peregrina · 03/08/2017 23:05

What a depressing article BigChoc.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/08/2017 23:07

The Vienna Convention on Treaties

This applies to the whole world, nothing to do with the EU.
note 70 1b re acquired rights

Article 70. CONSEQUENCES OF THE TERMINATION OF A TREATY
1. Unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree, the termination of a treaty under its provisions or in accordance with the present Convention:
(a) Releases the parties from any obligation further to perform the treaty;
(b) Does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created
through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.

imo, Gove is right - but for the wrong reason ! - saying EU boats with existing quotas can fish in perpetuity
Opinion of international lawyers is that under Vienna, the UK can't stop them !

< international lawyers must be coining it from Brexit >

It is also why I feel morally at least that expats should retain all current rights

  • if businesses keep acquired rights, then individuals should do too.
BigChocFrenzy · 04/08/2017 00:29

@bbcnickrobinson

It's clear
that Brexit negotiations have scarcely begun...within the Cabinet.
Forget finding agreement in Brussels when none in London

Valentine2 · 04/08/2017 00:29

ron
I have a feeling I have written it previously on these threads. apologies for not posting clearly. Under no circumstances I would consider social sciences and arts/languages to be of smaller value to STEM. When I say we need urgent investment into this, i mean we need to do it to develop critical scientific thinking at an earlier stage than we have really. essential maths, biology, and most importantly, scientific methods and critical thinking (maths and biology provide a direct route there, no idea about the fields you mentioned).

Mistigri · 04/08/2017 02:01

valentine I understood what you meant. Education has become a national security issue. Brexit and Trump are the biggest threats to national security in a generation, and in both cases they are the product of lack of education of a large proportion of the electorate in core critical thinking skills. It's not even about science education: it's more basic than that.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2017 03:10

Marine (Worthing) result:

LAB: 47.4% (+27.8)
CON: 38.8% (-6.4)
LDEM: 11.3% (+1.1)
GRN: 2.5% (-6.2)

No UKIP as previous.

Labour GAIN Marine (Worthing) from Conservative.

First Worthing Labour councilor in 40+ years.

It's a safe Tory area....

mathanxiety · 04/08/2017 03:24

That is a hefty swing.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2017 03:37

Yashar Ali @ yashar
NEW: Flynn has updated his disclosure forms to reflect pay from Mercer family controlled Cambridge Analytica

www.apnews.com/a250d1088af44a3b8b55275dc97de608

Carole Cadwalladr @ carolecadwalla
So finally...General Flynn fesses up. He DID work for SCL/Cambridge Analytica. Hmm. But what did he do?

In a completely unconnected and unrelated story from the US:

Mark Zuckerberg is definitely not thinking of running for president despite visiting small towns in Iowa and hiring a bunch of people with experience in campaigning.

Obviously.

In more US news, this is an interesting tweet:

John Schlinder @20comittee
McMaster, like Mattis (and Kelly) are motivated by patriotism. They are taking the hit for us all right now.

Kevin Powers @ kevinpowers70
They are playing the role of Alexander Haig in 1973. They know what's coming and must stabilize the government for it.

Implication being this is why three retired generals are working with Trump. Mattis and Kelly apparently have a pact to always have one of them at home keeping eye on Trump. In light of the grand jury having been called over Trump this is notable. Chances are they will have been aware for sometime (like Louise Mensch and Co appear to have been).

This obviously has implications for UK and a trade deal if this really does kick off in the way it's starting to appear it might (that includes chaos and violent scenario as well as the legal one).

We are headed for our own crisis in the autumn but I'd say the US look like they are headed for their own constitutional crisis at around the same time too. Certainly I would not be surprised by a major shit hitting the fan by Christmas.

However the idea of three former generals being in effective charge of the US is also rather chilling too when you consider the role of the military and democratic decline historically.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2017 03:49

thehill.com/homenews/senate/344176-graham-writing-bill-to-stop-trump-from-firing-special-counsel?amp
Graham, Booker writing bill to prevent Trump from firing special counsel

This story also very significant. Republican and Democrat writing bill together to stop Trump (or any other President) firing someone investigating the president. Apparently because they need the checks and balances. Obvious need for it, but the timing and who is involved says rather more. It's almost as if these are preparations for a political show down in US.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2017 03:55

Apparently atheist Zuckerberg has also recently found god.

Amazing isn't it.

twofingerstoEverything · 04/08/2017 07:15

It's a safe Tory area....

Worthing's demographics are changing rapidly. It's traditionally been god's waiting room, but lots of young families moving in (priced out of London and Brighton etc).

Worthing East also saw Labour coming up strongly in the June general election :
2015:
LOUGHTON Timothy Paul Conservative - 24,686
MACPHERSON Tim Labour - 9,737
2017:
LOUGHTON Timothy Paul The Conservative Party - 25,988
COOK Sophie Rose Labour Party - 20,882

Peregrina · 04/08/2017 08:05

The astonishing thing about the election results is that Labour is now apparently mopping up the UKIP votes. More likely I suspect, is that the Tories are still collecting them, but once moderate Tory voters are switching to Labour.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2017 08:25

www.standard.co.uk/stayingin/tvfilm/alan-partridge-will-return-to-bbc-as-the-voice-of-brexit-in-2018-a3603656.html?amp
Alan Partridge will return to the BBC as the ‘voice of Brexit’ in 2018

Steve Coogan has revealed that his comedy creation will be back next spring

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2017 08:39

Just read this article on German Election Campaign posters, and had to share the delightful AfD poster with you all:

It reads “Burqas? I’m more of a Burgundy type.”

I don't think I need to comment further do I?

Westminsterenders: The Ersatz ImitationThread
lalalonglegs · 04/08/2017 08:50

Can I just say that Brexit is almost worth it if we get Alan Partridge back on the BBC, espousing the joys of unicorns, a warm pint and low-level xenophobia Grin.

prettybird · 04/08/2017 09:09

Burgundy isn't even a German wine - and under EU rules, no German wine could be labelled as such maybe a German wine maker has aspirations Wink

whatwouldrondo · 04/08/2017 10:53

Valentine I didn't think you were disparaging other disciplines but I was quick to misinterpret that you felt we were not producing enough STEM graduates. I know not a few graduates who answered that call and my heart goes out to them as they try to make a career in the post Brexit world, the more so because it is in effect another broken promise from the older political generation.

As far as wider education goes I entirely agree but I don't think it is just studying STEM that gives you those critical thinking skills. I would of course stand up for History and Area Studies as another example. However I think that Trump and Brexit reflect a deeper cultural development. It isn't so much the lack of education as the willfull substitute of expertise and critical thinking skills etc. with rhetoric and emotion, including frankly a resentment of education and intellect. I have studied at postgrad level, but really that just equipped me to understand how little I know even in the areas where I do have "expertise". I still don't know it all, far from it. I am certainly sure I know pretty much diddly squat about international law for instance. If Richard Dawkins could say that he did not know enough to cast a vote in the referendum it is clear that education alone would not have equipped the electorate to vote. However you get Leaver after Leaver pronouncing with absolute conviction dogmatic statements, often, like wholly with little basis in actual fact. Meaningless rhetoric has stepped up as a substitute for expertise and the hard work of systematic analysis. Good historical analysis does use facts and figures but I bet that people Gove and Johnson swanned through Oxbridge producing clever elegantly argued but entirely evidence free essays full of estoteric philosophical thinking (they studied English and Classics respectively) which has equipped them admirably to first engage people with their meaningless rhetoric and then to completely mess up when it comes to actually having to implement something....

Peregrina · 04/08/2017 11:13

This is not on the subject of Brexit, but I think has lessons for it. There was a very good piece in yesterday's Guardian 2 section about the partition of India 70 years ago.

I reflected that even when something which was much desired can be botched if it's done in a rush and done without due care and attention, which I think can be said for that situation. So it could be with Brexit, especially given that virtually half the voting population didn't want it anyway.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/08/2017 11:42

Merkel & Schultz are both very pro-EU, because that is the norm in mainstream German politics.
So, debate and winning votes are about the standard issues that also used to dominate UK politics.
Also, the quality of the leader - both main choices are very competentEnvy [that's envy]

Merkel has been charging ahead of Martin Schultz & the SPD for quite some time.

CDU/CSU 40%
SPD 22%
GRN 8%
FDP 8%
LINKE 8%
AfD 8%

Chancellor:
Merkel 52%
Schulz 21%

May should cast an eye on what works for Merkel,
who shows how a Conservative leader can keep winning, time after time:

  • Merkel and her party are professionals, competent and knowledgeable about their roles and how to run the country. She doesn't have to choose idiots for key roles.
  • They stay focused on important issues, so the voters do, too.
  • Merkel plans meticulously and makes her aims clear.
  • she doesn't appoint the village idiots to cabinet.
  • she never hides away, also doesn't bugger off on holiday leaving the aforementioned village idiots to squabble.
BigChocFrenzy · 04/08/2017 11:45

Unicorns are not seen or expected in Germany

TheElementsSong · 04/08/2017 12:26

Revealed: The 9 levels of Leaver expectations about Brexit

inktank.fi/revealed-the-9-levels-of-leaver-expectations-about-brexit/

Grin